What is Salvation? [Archive] - Tzaddikim Discussion Forums

simcha

02-08-2002, 04:58 PM

What is salvation?

Matt. 24:12 "And because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
13 "But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved.

Mark 10:25 "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
26 And they were even more astonished and said to Him, "Then who can be saved?"
27 Looking upon them, Jesus said^, "With men it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God."

Mark 13:13 "And you will be hated by all on account of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved.

Mark 16:14 And afterward He appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at the table; and He reproached them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen.
15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

John 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.
18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 10:7 Jesus therefore said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 "All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9 "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 "The thief comes only to steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly.

Romans 9:27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED;
28 FOR THE LORD WILL EXECUTE HIS WORD UPON THE EARTH, THOROUGHLY AND QUICKLY."

Romans 11:26 and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27 "AND THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

We are saved from the curse of sin which is death. We have been saved to be able to live an abundant life. This does not come from us but only from Hashem through his son, Yeshua.

hyssop

02-08-2002, 10:25 PM

simcha,

I believe that you have touched on heart of the gospel . . .

Hashem, through Yeshua, has saved believers from sin. After having been saved from sin, the believer is now free from the curse of sin: death. The believer is not saved from physical death but, rather, eternal death given upon the day of judgement to those who reject Hashem.

This principle is relatively simple to state. I think that most "Christians" could read the previous paragraph and think, "Yes, that is what I believe." Ahh, but there are so many interpretations of how this all works . . . some say that Yeshua performed the Torah perfectly for them, so they no longer have to pay attention to Hashem's law . . . others say that Jeshua took their place as a sinner and died "in their stead," so they no longer have to pay attention to Hashem's law . . .

While some may consider it a waste of time and too difficult to understand, I believe that it is important to know the mechanics behind Hashem's plan.
[1 Pet 1:9 KJV] Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. [10] Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: [11] Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. [12] Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

simcha

02-09-2002, 06:53 AM

I just finished doing my study on Matthew for today. A few verses that those who consider that they no longer need to follow Torah (the law).

17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill.

The most forgotten verse in the NT and the most mistranslated! Yeshua did not come to ABOLISH the law (to destroy the law), but to fulfill (make complete, fully preach, to make abounding.) He hit the bullseye. He completed the law in the fact that he lived it to the fullest and gave us the power to do the same. (Law means instruction or principle).

18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished.

The word for fulfill in v17 is G4137. playrow, from G4134; to make full, to complete:-- accomplish(1), accomplished(1), amply supplied(m)(1), approaching(1), complete(1), completed(3), completing(1), elapsed(1), fill(3), filled(16), fills(1), finished(1), fulfill(5), fulfilled(35), fully carry out(m)(3), fully come(1), fully preached(m)(1), increasing(m)(1), made complete(2), made full(5), make complete(1), make full(1), passed(2), supply(1).

While the word for accomplished in v18 isG1096. ginomai, from a prim. root gen; to come into being, to happen, to become:-- accomplished(1), appeared(2), arise(1), arisen(1), arises(2), arose(16), arrived(2), became(53), become(83), becomes(8), becoming(2), been(17), been made(1), befall(1), behaved(m)(1), being(2), being carried out(1), being done(2), being made(2), born(m)(5), breaking*(1), brought(m)(1), came(m)(92), came into being(2), came to be(3), came to pass(2), come(26), come into being(1), come to be(1), comes(1), comes to pass(3), coming(1), dawn(1), determined*(1), developing(1), done(21), drawing(1), during(1), elapsed(1), existed*(1), falling(1), feeling(m)(1), fell(m)(6), finished(1), followed(1), formed(m)(3), found(2), get(4), give(1), got(1), granted(1), grown up*(1), had(1), happen(6), happened(33), happening(5), has(m)(3), join*(1), joined(3), made(16), might(1), occur(3), occurred(10), performed(4), prove(5), prove to be(2), proved(1), proved to be(5), proving to be(1), put on(1), reached(2), realized(1), result(m)(1), results(2), rose(1), show(1), spent(1), split(1), spoken(m)(1), starting(1), take place(16), taken(2), taken place(5), takes place(1), taking place(3), thundered*(1), took place(7), turned(1), turns out(3).

19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Oops! Does anyone see this verse? We are not to annul these commandments or teach others to do so. What has the church done?

20 "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.[COLOR=crimson][COLOR=crimson][COLOR=crimson][COLOR=red]

hyssop

02-09-2002, 01:51 PM

simcha,

If I may, I would like to ask you to consider the following piece of law:[Lev 1:3 KJV] If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the L-RD.[4] And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.[5] And he shall kill the bullock before the L-RD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.[6] And he shall flay the burnt offering, and cut it into his pieces.[7] And the sons of Aaron the priest shall put fire upon the altar, and lay the wood in order upon the fire:[8] And the priests, Aaron's sons, shall lay the parts, the head, and the fat, in order upon the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar:[9] But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the L-RD.Has this command been annulled? If not, how do we flay and wash our sacrifice?

simcha

02-09-2002, 04:27 PM

First of all, I believe this command cannot be carried out at this time as we have not temple and no priesthood to carry out the sacrificial system.

We have had a lot of discussion on this and I have to consider the following verses.

Mal 1:20 In that day there will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, "HOLY TO THE LORD." And the cooking pots in the LORD'S house will be like the bowls before the altar.
21 And every cooking pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the LORD of hosts; and all who sacrifice will come and take of them and boil in them. And there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts in that day.

I am not sure exactly what this means, but "in that day" tells me that this is in the end times and they are still sacrificing in the temple. I do think that if we are to sacrifice in that day that Yeshua will be there to teach us how to flay and wash our sacrifice or either the priesthood will be restored and they will teach us.

hyssop

02-09-2002, 06:38 PM

Please bear with me as I ask the following question. I am just trying to get an idea of where you are coming from.

And, so . . . if Yeshua fulfilled this commandment almost two thousand years ago, how do you think that he did that?

simcha

02-10-2002, 04:33 AM

This is what I believe AT THIS TIME. I have believed many things that have changed as I have studied.

The sacrifces themselves never took away sin. it was always repentence. The sacrifices were a picture of what was to come. I could only give you NT verses at this point as proof, so this is not a set in stone belief of mine. It is something that I still need to study.

If there were a sacrificial system at this time, I would participate if I were in Israel and not being in Israel I would send my tithes monetarily as scripture states.

The only example I have is Yeshua himself. He was a Jew and worshipped in the temple and from all I can gather did his sacrifices there. He never said not to do them.

hyssop

02-10-2002, 06:56 PM

simcha,

Let me preface this post with the following comments:

Please walk with me for a while before passing judgement upon what I am about to say. Although you may hear what sounds like the traditional view of Paul and how his writings are used to annul the Torah, I love the Torah. I observe the Sabbath, new moons, feast days, dietary laws. My third (and youngest) son was born after my conversion and was circumcised on the eighth day . . .

You stated that the sacrifices were a picture of what was to come. I agree. Actually, they were a picture of who was to come: Yeshua. Let's take a look at Leviticus 1:

<TABLE BORDER="3" CELLSPACING="1" CELLPADDING="7" WIDTH="100%"><TR><TD WIDTH="50%" ALIGN="CENTER" VALIGN="TOP">Leviticus 1</TD><TD WIDTH="50%" ALIGN="CENTER" VALIGN="MIDDLE">Potential Fulfillment</TD></TR><TR><TD WIDTH="50%" VALIGN="TOP">[Lev 1: 3 KJV] If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the L-RD. [4] And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.</TD><TD WIDTH="50%" VALIGN="TOP">A male without blemish: [1 Pet 1:18 KJV] Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; [19] But with the precious blood of [Meshiach], as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:</font</TD></TR><TR><TD WIDTH="50%" VALIGN="TOP">[5] And he shall kill the bullock before the L-RD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. [6] And he shall flay the burnt offering, and cut it into his pieces.</font</TD><TD WIDTH="50%" VALIGN="TOP">It was at the hands of the chief priests that Yeshua was betrayed, arrested, scourged, and crucified: [Mark 14:1 KJV] After two days was the feast of the passover, and of unleavened bread: and the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might take him by craft, and put him to death. [John 19:6 KJV] When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him. [Luke 24:20 KJV] And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.</TD></TR><TR><TD WIDTH="50%" VALIGN="TOP">[7] And the sons of Aaron the priest shall put fire upon the altar, and lay the wood in order upon the fire: [8] And the priests, Aaron's sons, shall lay the parts, the head, and the fat, in order upon the wood that is on the fire which is upon the altar:</TD><TD WIDTH="50%" VALIGN="TOP">Meshiach was laid in order on the wood (the cedar cross) and burned (suffered and died): [Heb 13:11 KJV] For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp. [12] Wherefore [Yeshua] also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Now that brings us to verse 9:[Lev 1:9 KJV] But his inwards and his legs shall he wash in water: and the priest shall burn all on the altar, to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the L-RD.If Yeshua, in his death, is fulfilling (as you wrote: "to complete" or "to accomplish") this piece of Torah, then how did he do it?
[John 19:32 KJV] Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. [33] But when they came to [Yeshua], and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: [34] But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. [35] And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. [36] For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. [37] And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced. Wow! Now that's fulfullment of Torah! Just picture this event in your mind: Yeshua is dead. He can no longer consciously do anything about accomplishing Torah or prophesy. A soldier comes along and shoves a spear in Yeshua's side which pierces his stomach or bladder, and water washes through his inwards and down his legs . . . thus, fulfilling Lev 1:9!

It gives me goosebumps to ponder upon the power and wisdom of Hashem: Satan entered into Judas to foil Hashem's plan which existed from the foundation of the world, saw that the Messiach was murdered, and unknowingly participated in the fulfillment of Torah to the letter.

simcha, I want to again stress that I do not believe that not the smallest letter or stroke has passed away from the Law. [Rom 3:31 KJV] Do we then make void the law through faith? G-d forbid: yea, we establish the law.

simcha

02-11-2002, 01:57 AM

I agree with all of this, but I believe you asked if this law of the burnt sacrifice had been annulled.

I do believe Yeshua was the sacrifice, the ultimate sacrifice, but I do not know that the picture needs to end at that since there are many, many Jews who do not believe Yeshua was the sacrifice. I do not see where it says if the temple is rebuilt you shall not sacrifice in it.

As I said before, I do not believe the sacrificial system ever took away sin. It has always been repentence which Yeshua preached. His blood took away the curse of death which was the penalty for sin.

Once again, this is a moot point for me. I do not live in Jerusalem, there is no temple or sacrificial system and may not be before Messiah returns.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I know that Yeshua is my sacrificial lamb, but I do not know how this impacts the priestly sacrificial system if the temple were to be rebuilt.

hyssop

02-11-2002, 06:03 PM

Yes. For those many, many Jews who do not believe that Yeshua is the Meshiach, there is no other sacrifice apart from the physical. And I will not tell a believer that it would be wrong to participate in temple sacrifice.

If you are willing, I would like to examine the mechanics behind sin and sacrifice. You said that sacrifice did not take away sin. For the most part, I agree. Consider the words of Micah:[Micah 6:7 KJV] Will the L-RD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? [8] He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the L-RD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy G-d?At this point, sacrifice was certainly not taking away sin. In fact, just the opposite was happening: people were using sacrifice as a license to sin; many thought "hey, I want to do this sin and I can afford the sacrifice, so I'm happy and Hashem is happy."

Micah's message was that Hashem wants righteousness, not sacrifice. So, what was the purpose of sacrifice? Well, I believe that it was supposed to turn the individual from sin. When the individual had to select the best of the flock/herd and kill that animal as a result of their sin, they should want to avoid sin. That's the message behind the sacrificial system: sin kills -- avoid it at all cost. So, if the sacrifices were used in the manner for which they were given, one could say that sacrifices took away sin. What do you think?

Searching

02-11-2002, 06:13 PM

Mr. Hyssop,

I agree that the Sacrifice does not take away the sin.
However, when in the Old Testement is the sin forgiven? Is it immeditaly when one repents and turns from sin? I would think so, seems only fair eh? I am sure though if one didn't sacrifice when they were supposed to and had a chance to, it would be a sin, even it they had repented and turned.

However, a silly question that I might ask, is what is the need for Messiah then? If sins were forgiven in the Past, for repentance, what is it that the Jews were waiting for? Thier sins could already be forgiven right?

Say hi to the fam.

Sincerely,
Searching

simcha

02-12-2002, 02:17 AM

Thanks for both of your replys.

I agree with both of you, but I must take time to study to answer this properly. This is a subject not to be taken lightly, and I would not want my answer to cause someone to stumble.

I will post on this subject when I have something of content and not just answering for the sake of answering. Please bear with me.

simcha

02-13-2002, 04:27 PM

I believe one purpose for the sacrifice of Yeshua was to become the second Adam, who was sinless, to replace the first Adam, who sinned. This made Him the high priest and took away the curse of death and the grave. This is not taking a way physical death, but spiritual death.

Another sacrifice that Yeshua fulfilled was the sacrifice of the Passover lamb. Again this had to do with overcoming death, and was the purchase (redemption) price for our lives as believers, as the firstborn of the Messiah.

Repentence is just that, turning away from sin and turning back to the Father. The sacrifices were the vehicles through which we could understand the depth of sin and the need to be brought out of sin.

Searching

02-14-2002, 01:03 AM

Simcha,

Was it necessary for Adam to be replaced?

Searching

simcha

02-14-2002, 02:27 AM

I believe it was necessary. There is an order to this universe and an order to the spirit realm. When that order is disturbed, such as Adam's first disobedient act, it took everything out of it's perfect order and Adam and Eve were cast out of Gan Eden. In order for us to get back to Gan Eden, to that perfect relationship with Hashem, something or someone had to reverse the process. Yeshua did that. Just as Adam's sin brought death into the world, Yeshua as the sinless sacrifice, being a sacrifice of his own free will, turned the process around. We are now headed back to Gan Eden, to the promise land if you will. To that perfect relationship with Hashem.

It is very early in the morning here, 5:30 a.m., so if this doesn't make sense to you we will blame it on the fact that I have only had one cup of coffee.:D

cook

02-14-2002, 11:14 AM

Hello all:

Hyssop brought forth a very good analogy to prove what sacrifices pictured:

Hyssop: You stated that the sacrifices were a picture of what was to come. I agree. Actually, they were a picture of who was to come: Yeshua.

As Hyssop stated, the whole process of the crucificion and his portrayal of water from the wound is indeed an actual portrayal of a burnt offering.

My purpose in the following, is not to take away from his analogy but to build (edify) upon it for the purpose of helping raise the temple (us).

Yashuah’s sacrifice completed more than the burnt offering. It also completed Passover and Atonement.

Mat gives a chronology of the days preceding Passover. According to the Passover covenant, on the tenth day of the 1st month, the lambs were selected and examined until the fourteenth. The day that Messiah entered Jerusalem on the donkey was the 10th of Nissan. He entered just before the high priest who was bringing the selected lamb into Jerusalem to the temple. That is when, every year, the people would stand next to the road with palms and say “hossanna in the Highest – Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord”. They were anticipating the coming of the Messiah.

If you will read the account, the priests were angry with Messiah because he was going on the donkey before them. Messiah said that this is the day that this is fulfilled and that “Yah would raise up stones, if necessary, to proclaim it”. He then proceeded to the temple and was EXAMINED for 4 days (off and on) before the priests, AND THEY COULD FIND NO FAULT IN HIM. THE PRIESTS ENDED UP IN LIES AND FALSE ACCUSATIONS TRYING TO FIND A BLEMISH IN THE “LAMB”.

On Passover, it was at 3:00 pm that the first lamb was killed by the priests for the Passover of the WHOLE CONGREGATION. This is precisely the hour that Messiah was crucified. The WHOLE PURPOSE YAH ORDAINED THE PASSOVER WAS FOR THIS VERY YEAR.

The second sacrifice Messiah fulfilled (completed) was Atonement. Paul in Hebrews gives the details of this in chapter 9. The word atonement means: covering, ransom, price of a life, reconciliation and PURGE. By his sacrifice, Messiah, AS HIGH PRIEST OF THE ORDER OF MELCHIZIDEC, entered into the HOLY OF HOLIES of the TABERNACLE made without hands. In other words he BEGAN (the cornerstone is always laid first) the NEW TABERNACLE which is fashioned by Yahweh, and consists of THE PROPHETS, THE APOSTLES and the “CALLED OUT ONES”. This tabernacle is contained in the temple that proceeds from Yah in Rev 21. “How much more will the blood of the Messiah, Who, through the eternal spirit offered Himself without spot to Yah, PURGE YOUR CONSCIENCE FROM DEAD WORKS to serve the living Father?”

Purge your CONSCIENCE from dead works. That is the key to understanding the sacrifices. The fault with the sacrifices of leviticus, was that, although they could forgive sin, they COULDN’T give us the Desire NOT to sin. This is what many don’t understand about Hebrews. This is what Paul was explaining.

Heb 10:1: For the Law can never with these SAME SACRIFICES, which they offer continually year by year, MAKE THOSE WHO COME NEAR PERFECT. That word “PERFECT” means: ADD WHAT IS WANTING TO RENDER A THING FULL!!!

What was WANTING is explained in verse 2: For then, would they not have CEASED to be offered? For the worshipers, once purged, would have had no more CONSCIOUSNESS of sins. (See Heb:9:14 above) The word CONSCIOUSNESS is the key to understanding Heb 10: CONSCIOUSNESS: distinguishing between good and bad, PROMPTING TO DO GOOD AND SHUN BAD!!!! Although the Priests, had they been doing their job, could have taught this “consciousness”; but the law in itself could not. That is why a RENEWED priesthood of Meschizedec was needed, because through it YAHWEH WOULD WRITE HIS LAWS IN OUR HEARTS (INNER BEING) AND MINDS, THEREBY GIVING US “THIS CONSCIOUSNESS” AND GIVING US THE DESIRE NOT TO SIN.

That is WHY we have had no LEVITICAL PRIESTHOOD for 2000 years – BECAUSE THEY FAILED IN THEIR JOB. It doesn’t matter how many temples they build in Jerusalem! They, the priests, have failed and are still failing today BECAUSE OF THE STUMBLING BLOCK OF MESSIAH. THEY REFUSE TO ACCEPT HIM AND ARE SUBSEQUENTLY BLINDED (for the mercy of the gentiles who now can be grafted into Israel). WE ARE THE TEMPLE AND WE ARE TO PRESENT OUR BODIES AS LIVING SACRIFICES. WE ARE THE PRIESTS OF THE ORDER OF MELCHIZIDEC!!

Another interesting item is that in the physical priesthood at the time of the millenium neither the sacrifices of Passover or Atonement are mentioned in Ezekial.

Jay

hyssop

02-14-2002, 05:27 PM

Thanks for starting off your birthday with us; I hope it has been a good day for you.

If I may reiterate what I understand you to be saying about sin and Adam. Basically, do you believe that:
<hr>Hashem had a plan for Adam that was "sidetracked." Either Adam, satan, or both of them (through Adam's sin) threw Hashem's perfect order "out of kilter." And, now, through Yeshua, Hashem is in the process of putting things back ("fixing" something broken) the way they were when Adam and Eve were living in Hagan Eden.<hr>

cook

02-14-2002, 06:22 PM

Hello all,

In this post, I would like to explain my understanding of sacrifices. They are also referred to a OFFERINGS. There were:

Burnt offerings, drink offerings, grain offerings, freewill offerings, heave offerings, jealousy offerings, meat offerings, peace offerings, sin offerings, thanksgiving offerings, trespass offerings, and wave offerings. The ones I wish to address are the sacrifices that resulted in FORGIVENESS.

Lev 4:20: (sin offering) This is an offering when the whole congregation sins ignorantly. “And the priest shall make atonement for the whole congregation and it shall be FORGIVEN them.”

Lev 4:26: (sin offering) Offering for when a ruler sins ignorantly. “So the priest shall make atonement for the ruler concerning his sin, and it shall be FORGIVEN him.”

Lev 4:31 (sin offering) offering for when any other member of the congregation sins ignorantly. “So the priest shall make atonement for him, and it shall be FORGIVEN him.”

Lev 5:10 (tresspass offering) offering for broken vows, negligence, uncleaness. “So the priest shall make atonement on his behalf, for his sin which he has sinned; and it shall be FORGIVEN him.”

Lev 5:13 (tresspass offering) poor man’s offering

Lev 5:16 (tresspass offering) offering for sinning ignorantly against Yah’s holy things. “priest shall make atonement for him; and it shall be FORGIVEN him.”

Lev 5:18 (tresspass offering) offering for ignorantly breaking any Law of Yah. “priest shall make atonement for him; and it shall be FORGIVEN him.”

Lev 6:7 (burnt offering) offering for perjury, false witness, robbery, extortion. “priest shall make atonement for him; and it shall be FORGIVEN him.”

Lev 19:22 (tresspass offering) offering for revenge, coveting, sexual sins, pride, fraud, stealing, slander “priest shall make atonement for him; and it shall be FORGIVEN him.”

Before the sacrifice, the person who committed the offense was FIRST supposed to make AMMENDS with the injured party. For instance, if the offense was stealing, the guilty party was to pay 3 times the value of the injury, but if he sold it, he was to pay 5 times the value.

Unfortunately, the priests and levites were not teaching this principle, and were only interested in the heave offerings and wave offerings which was the payment for them. It is exactly the same today. The priests (in black robes) do not seek restitution for the victims but are only interested in the fines (heave offerings) and court costs (wave offerings). Because they did not do their job, Yah annulled the WHOLE PRIESTHOOD, and replaced it with the Melchizidec priesthood. Then Yah placed his spirit in each of us so we now have but one teacher and shepherd, Messiah. These sacrifices were ordained because of (trespasses) the calf incident at Sinai only until the seed should come (Messiah) (Gal 3:19)

As far as how the sacrificial systems would impact us should the temple be rebuilt prior to Messiah's return; this is my answer. There is no way that I will come under the authority of a Aaronite Priest who doesn't even accept the sacrifice of Yahshua. THEY ARE LIARS BECAUSE THEY CALL MESSIAH A LIAR. (1Jn 5:10) I won't even invite them into my house let alone worship at their temple (2Jn 10).

Jay

simcha

02-14-2002, 07:01 PM

Hyssop,

Thanks for the birthday wish. I had a very good day. Thanks.

Yes, this is what I am saying. Yeshua was the second Adam. Just as many of the patriarchs were the second son who became the priest of the family.

Now to address Cook's statement about the priests. Are we not to carry the truth to those who do not know the truth? How can you therefore say that you would not even invite them into your home. Doesn't that sound a lot like what the pharasees taught in Yeshua's time. They would not enter the home of a Gentile or have anything to do with them, yet Yeshua taught that we should take the gospel to the whole world. Our hearts need to be gentle one toward another.

cook

02-14-2002, 07:36 PM

Hi Simcha,

Your comment: Now to address Cook's statement about the priests. Are we not to carry the truth to those who do not know the truth? How can you therefore say that you would not even invite them into your home. Doesn't that sound a lot like what the pharasees taught in Yeshua's time. They would not enter the home of a Gentile or have anything to do with them, yet Yeshua taught that we should take the gospel to the whole world. Our hearts need to be gentle one toward another.

Jay's Comment: It's not what the pharasees taught, but what the APOSTLE JOHN taught. If I welcomed him it would cause me to be a partaker of his evil deeds. 1Jn 8-11.

Yahshua said, I believe, that this gospel (message) would be preached, heralded, published and proclaimed throughout the whole world. That is being done by the scriptures, not by us. That statement has been adopted by the world's churches to propetuate their money scheme. The purpose of the called out ones is to edify (build) the temple. Yah chooses whom he will call.

hyssop

02-14-2002, 08:34 PM

cook,

I'd have to agree with simcha. You shouldn't be too hard on the Jew.[Rom 11:25 KJV] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. [26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:[27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. [28] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.The Pharisee of Yeshua's day was "wise in his own conceit." He had the attitude: "I am Hashem's chosen, and the rest of you might as well be cattle." --- "Boy, am I glad that I'm not a Gentile; they're doomed." It turned out that "pride came before fall, and they stumbled at the stumblingstone (Yeshua)." For the most part, Israel was blinded and Hashem called the Gentiles in great numbers.
It's interesting to note that a great deal of Paul's time was spent trying to keep the flock in line . . . the uninformed Gentiles were incorporating many of their beliefs and practices into their new religion.[2 Tim 4:3] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; [4] And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.[Acts 20:29 KJV] For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.[30] Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. [31] Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.It didn't take long . . . the Sabbath was changed to Sunday (the day of the Sun), the church established Easter (the Spring festival) and Christmas (the Winter festival) as "Holy Days," Hashem's Holy Days were forgotten, and the list goes on and on.

Where are we today? Well, the "Christian" world is saying to themselves: "Boy am I glad that G-d chose me and that I'm not a Jew" --- "They killed Yeshua; they don't believe; they're doomed." Sound familiar? Two thousand years later, the Gentiles sound just like the Pharisees. And, guess what . . . for the most part, these Gentiles are no more "in" with G-d than the Pharisees were. Why? Because they've ignored Hashem's word; they want to believe that the Torah has been "fulfilled" "completed" "done away." They don't want to have to do what Hashem commands. And because of that attitude, Hashem has blinded many of them so that they are in darkness.

What's the next step? The tables are going to be turned. The Jew is going to be called! We've been looking into the spiritual fulfillment of the sacrifices on this thread. Until now, the Jew can only see the physical keeping of the Torah. I say, "until now," because I know in my very soul that Hashem is going pour His spirit upon the Jew . . . and when that happens . . . [2 Cor 3:14 KJV] But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Chr-st.[15] But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. [16] Nevertheless when it shall turn to the L-rd, the veil shall be taken away.The scripture does not say, "if it shall turn," it says, "when it shall turn." Hashem is going to show the Jew things that the Gentile "Christian" could never see. Why?[Rom 3:1 KJV] What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? [2] Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of G-d.They have the Torah! They've been studying the physical for millinia . . . and they are going to be able to use that experience/knowledge to understand the spiritual.
One of my greatest hopes is that Hashem let me live to see the Jew awakened to Yeshua and to the spiritual lessons "hidden" in the Torah.

simcha

02-15-2002, 02:23 AM

Jay,

In your comment you quote 1 Jn 8:11. I do not find any such scripture. Could you please restate your quote.

Hyssop pretty much said everything. I agree with Hyssop.

hyssop

02-15-2002, 03:31 AM

simcha,

I think that Jay quoted I John 1: 8-11.

Jay,

I agree with you that evangelism has been misused by many to "extort" money from the masses. But I do feel that it is our job to spread Yah's truth:[Mat 28:19 KJV] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.[Rom 10:14 KJV] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? [15] And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!Notice that I said "our job." I think that every believer should be ready and willing to witness their faith.

Simcha, back to our topic:

Do you feel that 1) it was Yah's plan to have Adam and Eve tend Hagan Eden forever; and/or 2) that there will again be another Gan Eden set up on earth to be inhabited by man forever?

cook

02-15-2002, 08:59 AM

Hi Hyssop:

You said: I'd have to agree with simcha. You shouldn't be too hard on the Jew

Jay's comment: The issue to me is: Who composes the Israel of Yah? Is it the Jews? No. It is both the gentile and the jew WHOM YAH CALLS. 2john, that I quoted above, confirms that faith (conviction of the truth) that Messiah HAS COME in the flesh is the criteria for determining whether a man should be WELCOMED into your house. If they don't believe this teaching, they are a DECEIVER and ANTICHRIST (VS 7)!

Hyssop, you then quote Rom 11:25-28. Vs 28 states that ISRAEL
is our ENEMY. BUT, they are beloved for THE SAKE OF THEIR FATHER'S. (not for their own sake). Israel composes 11 other tribes besides the Jews. It is probable that these 11 other tribes are composed of the "christian" preachers who have joined Judah in DECEPTION even though not denying Messiah and are not "technically" an ADVERSARY OF MESSIAH (antichrist); but yet they deny the Law.

Judah itself, denies the Law by insisting that the Babylonian Talmud is their MOST IMPORTANT TEACHING! (Jewish Encyclopedia) (commands of men) This book is what teaches that all non-jews are cattle and beasts of burden. This book teaches that sodomy is lawful, and sex with young girls or boys under the age of nine is lawful (San 546); Beastiality is lawful (yeba 596); Child sacrifice is lawful (San 64a); and harlotry is lawful (Abodah Zarah 626-63a)

My intention is not to be hard on the Jews at large, but yes, I'm VERY HARD concerning the RABBIS, because this is their belief. They are all gnostics, and like the preachers, they have LED JUDAH ASTRAY.

Ever since Hillel II (380AD), they have perverted the calendar, changing the months to the names of their pagan gods, changing the beginning of the year to the fall, changing the beginning of DAY to NIGHT, changing the beginning of the month to the sliver moon, and adding unscriptural postponements to the Feasts of the Almighty Yah.

Hyssop, then you quote Rom 3:1,2, (much in the way the preachers quoted it to me): 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed (#4100) the oracles of God.

Committed: Grk Pisteuo: to think to be true, to be persuaded of,

If the Rabbis hold the Talmud in higher esteem, would you still think they are persuaded by the utterances of Yah? If we believe that the new testament is also the utterances of Yah, are you convinced that the Rabbis "think them to be true"?.

The oracles of Yah are now believed and persuasive to the Called Out Ones, the Israel of Yah. Yes there are Jews and Gadites, and Ephramites, and Gentiles who are the Israel of Yah, but there is not ONE RABBI----YET.

We, the ekklesia, are the Priests; the only ones whom now UNDERSTAND the utterances of Yah, since we are the ONLY ones who have the Spirit of Yah.

The Scriptures have been "preached" (published, heralded, and proclaimed) through the distribution of "bibles" throughout the ENTIRE WORLD. We are not the "Sent Ones" (apostles) designated by Yah "to go to an appointed place". The same apostles that Messiah chose and prophets that Yah chose, are STILL FULFILLING THAT ASSIGNMENT through the New and Old Testaments throughout the entire world. Our job is to establish "ASSEMBLIES" and "BUILD THE TEMPLE" (see Nehimiah, Ezra, Kings and Chronicles). Yah says in many scriptures that HE WILL DO A WORK. HE WILL CALL WHOM HE CHOOSES. Our "work" is to be ready to EDIFY (build up each other) through the GIFTS OF THE SET APART SPIRIT.

Hyssop: Next you quote Mat 28:19 - [Mat 28:19 KJV] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

This command to go into all the nations was given to the Apostles (sent ones). We are to be attending to verse 20: observing all things I have commanded you.

This is what a TRUE WITNESS (that you are alluding to) does. He LIVES the TORAH. A true witness talks about the Torah mainly to Build up the Ekklesia. A true witness, does not have unequal weights and measures in his bag. A true witness does not allow the State to educate his kids; he educates them himself as commanded. A true witness does not enter into covenants with foreign governments; A true witness wears a tizit; A true witness does not participate in usuary with his brother nor does he pay usuary to the money masters; A true witness does not eat genetically altered foods, nor irradiated meats and vegetables; A true witness does not participate in commerce but practices private business and deals in substance (wheat, honey, gold, silver) instead of stealing (paper dollars); A true witness has 3 1/2 years supply of food as commanded in the scriptures and has zero debt; A true witness realizes that all these are commanded in the scriptures, and he EXHORTS the Assembly how and why they must OBSERVE ALL THESE THINGS.

simcha

02-15-2002, 04:37 PM

Well, Hyssop, it certainly seems that had Adam not sinned by disobeying Hashem that we would be living in Gan Eden now. I would cannot say what Hashem's plan was. I guess it was as we are now, since he is omnipresent and knew what would happen. That is one of those areas that is too lofty for my earthly brain.

As for whether we will live in Gan Eden again, I think we will have the same relationship with Hashem that Adam had. We will be totally taken care of by Hashem and even the animals will all get along, so to me that is a picture of Gan Eden. Of course, this is my own opinion and with that and whatever coffee costs now you can get a cup of coffee.:D

hyssop

02-15-2002, 08:36 PM

cook,

Wow! Did we hit a nerve or something?

I started a thread under Open Theology Discussion called "A True Witness." I would appreciate it if you would expound on the scriptural basis for some of the "true witness" attributes you've mentioned (e.g. don't eat irradiated meats, don't use paper money, etc.)

I created the additional thread for the purpose of trying to focus the conversation that we had going on here. I'm as guilty as anyone else when it comes to touching on a multitude of side topics to the conversation at hand, and that makes it difficult to follow the point. Soooo . . . here, we're talking about salvation --- from what are we being saved and how is Hashem bringing it about?

To be continued . . .

simcha

02-16-2002, 05:20 AM

Cook,

I feel that you are very adament about what you believe and obviously it is not how I interpret those passages. I will not argue the points you have made other than to say that there are many rabbi's who have accepted Yeshua as the Messiah. Someone had to set the example and show them the way.

I would also say that the lost tribes of Israel are assimilated into the nations. That could be you or me. And yes, Hashem calls out whom He wishes, but if they have not been given the truth how will they know what He is calling them for?

Yeshua is my example. Not men's good intentions. Therefore I must follow in His steps.

Shalom
Simcha

cook

02-16-2002, 09:18 AM

Hello again, Hyssop and Simcha,

I realise that what I have written in this thread sounds "very opinionated" to you all, but I am convinced that it is scriptural. After all, that is the main object of this forum, to discern the truth of the scriptures. My goal is to be "hot", not "cold" and certainly not "lukewarm".

I also realise that you might be thinking "who is this guy"? So, I guess that a brief biography might be in order. I am 55 years old, have always been self employed, went to Vietnam, raised two sons without a mother, and was baptized into WWCG around 78 (they kept Sabbath and Feasts). I basically sat around the congregation like a bump on a log (or a box of rocks) until Yah shook up that "church" in 96. Since then, I have attended an "independent" for a short while, but since my sons were grown (and no wife) found time to do an intense study of the scriptures only. No commentaries, no published "guides", only the scriptures. I also include, along with biblical law, U.S. law, international law, world history, U.S. history, and some archeology. I have found, that with a computer, and a program called "online bible" (plus several translations) I can do a THOROUGH study on any particular issue, in a very very short time. So, since 96, my sons and I have been committed to becoming "worthy to escape the wrath that is coming", which from my best judgement will be FINISHED on the jubilee of 2013.

So, trusting that Yah, will not allow my family (two grandsons so far) to be "caught unaware" and at the same time realising that I have only a few years to get my "act together", I probably do write with a certain sense of "urgency", for we each are responsible for our own families and since I sense a great possibility that you all must realise that "faith without WORKS" is dead also, then I'll feel compelled to continue "giving an answer" for what I believe about salvation.

Oops, one of you answered another thread, and I have to go feed the chickens, so I'll continue my answer in a bit.

PS: Since there are only 7 members (so far) on this forum, I would enjoy and appreciate a short biography from each of you.

cook

02-16-2002, 12:07 PM

Hello Hyssop, Simcha and all,

First of all, I would like to reiterate my PS on the previous post. I would enjoy and appreciate a short biography from each of you. (there are 7 members and #7 means completion, but when we have eight it means a new beginning)

Simcha said:
I feel that you are very adament about what you believe and obviously it is not how I interpret those passages. I will not argue the points you have made other than to say that there are many rabbi's who have accepted Yeshua as the Messiah. Someone had to set the example and show them the way.

Jay's comment: If there are many rabbi's who have accepted Messiah, then they should be familiar with Mat 23:8:

But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

It's interesting that throughout the whole new testament, that not one writer refers to anyone as rabbi, except Messiah. John the Baptist's disciples refer to John as Rabbi in Jn 3:26 but John immediately in verse 30 says: He must increase; but I must decrease (referring to Messiah)

The word rabbi means: my great one
It is a title of nobility (which is even against the US Constitution)

Any converted man of Yah, who would claim that he is a rabbi would be suspect in my mind.

Simcha, when you say you will not "argue the point", that is most certainly your option. But I say:

2Tim 3:
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. {throughly…: or, perfected}

The word reproof means: to prove through argument
The word rubuke means: to convince

We are also admonished by scripture to:
"give an answer for what we believe" and
"iron sharpens iron"

The stakes are high, and we all are going to stand before Messiah and we better learn to "give a (scriptural) answer" because we won't be able to hire a lawyer to defend us. In fact, 1pet 4:17 states that the house of Yah is NOW UNDER JUDGEMENT.

Paul says to "imitate him as he imitates Messiah". Paul was a lawyer (a prosecutor specifically) who was in court much of the time. Even though Yah says he will put the words in our mouths when we go before judges, you can bet that we better know His Word thoroughly or we will just stand there mute. (that would be incompetence)

Simcha said: I would also say that the lost tribes of Israel are assimilated into the nations. That could be you or me. And yes, Hashem calls out whom He wishes, but if they have not been given the truth how will they know what He is calling them for?

Jay's comment: If Yah is calling them, they will be led to the scriptures, which is the only source of truth, for: Psalms 116:11 All men are liars.

and

Mark 10:27 With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

hyssop

02-17-2002, 10:35 AM

simcha,

I don't know if you've seen it, but there is an article called "Original Sin" on our home page: . I wrote it before I became sensitive to the use of the secular names, so I hope that it is not offensive to you.

I thought about responding to your post where you said, "I guess [Hashem's plan] was as we are now, since he is omnipresent and knew what would happen" with some of the content from Original Sin. But then I thought that I would point you to the article and hope that it gives you a good sense of where we stand on the issue of Hashem's plan for man. Any comments/corrections that you might have would be appreciated.

hyssop

02-19-2002, 08:54 PM

Scripture states that Yeshua was foreordained from the foundation of the world -- before Adam and Eve existed. Now, if Yeshua was destined to be our Passover lamb from the foundation of the world, it stands to reason that Yahweh knew that Adam and Eve would "fall" before they were even created.

Hmmm . . . if Adam and Eve were destined to fall, did they really have a choice?

Further, how could Adam and Eve have a knowledge of good and evil before they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? So, if they didn't know the difference between good and evil, what real choice could they make but to follow their carnal desires?

simcha

02-20-2002, 03:51 PM

Hyssop,

I do not presume to explain the things of Hashem, only what little insight He has given me.

Isaiah 55:8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Neither are your ways My ways," declares the LORD.
9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.

So here goes with what little insight I have.

With Hashem there is not time constraints, therefore he knows from here to eternity (whatever that is). He knows what is going to be, therefore he knew Adam and Chava would disobey him. However, they did it of their own free will. Had He stopped them, they would not have had free will.

The only choice I see that they had was to obey or not to obey. They were told the consequences, yet they chose to go with their own desires. They did not know good and evil, yet they did know to obey Hashem.

"My thoughts for what it's worth."

Simcha

hyssop

02-20-2002, 08:14 PM

Simcha,

Okay, you feel that Adam and Chavah possessed a free will to choose to follow Hashem's commandment (or not). It does appear to be the state of things in Hagan Eden.

Do you think that we have this free will, too?

simcha

02-21-2002, 03:12 AM

Hyssop,

Yes, I believe Adam and Chava were given a free will in Gan Edan and we possess that same free will.

Simcha

hyssop

02-21-2002, 04:30 PM

Hi, Simcha:

You know, it really does seem that we do have free will. Every day we are faced with all kinds of choices, and we decide what we are and are not going to do. And . . . we usually like it that way: not many people enjoy being "bossed around." We like the freedom of choosing (and doing) what we want.

We can decide, for example, that we will not steal that $10 bill from our brother's available wallet . . . or . . . we can decide to do so . . . it's our "free will" choice. Hopefully, we choose to do good.

And, so we go through life . . . making our choices all along the way . . . thousands of choices . . . hundreds of thousands . . . and when we focus our attention on any single choice: unless someone was holding a gun to our head, it was our choice.

With all of this said, I have another question: Do you think that we could both decide that, starting tomorrow morning, we are going to exercise our "free will" for the rest of our lives to choose to do only good? What I mean is: from this moment on, when we are faced with a decision between what we know is good and what we know is sin, we will forevermore choose good.

simcha

02-21-2002, 05:15 PM

Hyssop,

I believe we can make that decision to do good every day. I make that decision almost daily, but then I slip and fall short. I guess I am in good company.

Romans 8:19 For the good that I wish, I do not do; but I practice the very evil that I do not wish.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wishes to do good.
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Even Paul could not seem to conquer sin in his flesh. It does not mean that we do not keep trying. We must strive to conquer the flesh.

Simcha

hyssop

02-21-2002, 06:39 PM

simcha,

Indeed, we are in good company. What do you think that Paul meant when he said that the members of my body made him a prisoner of the law of sin? Do prisoners have free will?

cook

02-21-2002, 08:11 PM

Hello all,

For many years, I had a problem with Romans 7:19-25 because it wasn't in harmony with many scriptures. For instance:

1John 2:4: He who says: I know Him, but does not keep his Law, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His Law, in him truly is the love of Yahweh perfected: by this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him, is himself also OBLIGATED to walk EXACTLY as He walked.

1John 3:6: Whoever abides in Him does not sin; whoever sins, has not seen Him, neither knows Him.

1John 3:9: Whoever is begotten of Yahweh does not commit sin; for His seed remains in Him; and it is possible for him not to sin, because he has been begotten of Yahweh.

1John 5:18: We know that whoever is born of Yahweh does not sin; but he who has been begotten of Yahweh keeps himself, and the evil one does not touch him.

2John 1:9: Whoever transgresses, and does not abide in the doctrine of the Messiah, does not have Yahweh.

3John 1:11: He who does righteousness is of Yahweh, but he who does evil has not seen Yahweh.

James 1:4 But let patience have her perfect (wanting nothing necessary to completeness) work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, {written: or, enrolled}

Hebrews 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. {the bringing…: or, it was the bringing in}

And then in Hebrews, the renewed covenant is Yah writing his law in our hearts and thereby giving us the desire and ability not to sin.

I believe the English translation of Romans 7 is faulty, to uphold the doctrine of confession (anglican and catholic), and to sustain the doctrine of hierarchy where we would seek salvation (acceptance) by bishops and priests, etc.

Romans 7 is one of those times where Paul is speaking in the "historical present". This is how "online bible" describes it:

Some phrases which might be rendered as past tense in English
will often occur in the present tense in Greek. These are
termed "historical presents," and such occurrences dramatize
the event described as if the reader were there watching the
event occur. Some English translations render such historical
presents in the English past tense, while others permit the
tense to remain in the present.

So, the English should have rendered Rom 7 in past tense as follows:

Rom 7:14 - For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I was carnal, sold into the power of sin. For what I would have done, that I did not do; but what I hated, that is what I did. And if I did what I did not want to do, I agreed that the Law is righteous. As it was, it was no longer I myself who did it, but it was sin living in me. For I know that nothing righteous dwelt within me, that is, in my flesh. For I had the will to do what was right, but I did not carry it out. For the righteousness that I wanted to do, I did not do; but the evil which I did not want to do, that I did. Now if I did what I did not want to do, it was no longer I who did it, but it was sin living in me that did it. So I found this law at work: That evel was present with me-the very one who wanted to do righteousness: For I delight in the Law of Yahweh according to the inward man; But I saw another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the Law in my mind, and bringing me into captivity of the law of sin, which is in my members. O wretched man that I was! Who will deliver me from the body of death?

The BIG LIE is that Yah's SPIRIT is not powerful enough to enable us not to sin. Messiah, is living proof!

hyssop

02-22-2002, 06:09 PM

Wow, Cook! It appears to me like you're arbitrarily rewriting scripture to fit your belief system. You are not the first . . . and certainly will not be the last to look at scripture and use some "scholarly" wording to explain why the words that are clearly written really don't mean what they say. You know, Martin Luther wanted the whole book of James taken out of the Bible, because he thought that "faith without works is dead" wasn't "in harmony with many scriptures."

When you retranslated Romans 7:14, how did you decide to leave the first verb in the present tense and then choose to change the last verb to the "historical present" (e.g. past tense)? I guess a scripture that states, "For we know that the law was spiritual:" might be a bit of a stretch. And, again in verse 22: you decided not to change that present tense verb to say, "For I delighted in the law . . ."

Your new translation says that, when you were carnal, you agreed that the law was righteous and something that you wanted to do . . . that you hated performing unrighteousness. Are you now going to have to rewrite Rom 8:7 - "Because the carnal mind is enmity against G-d"?

I believe that the carnal (fleshly) mind is in agreement with the flesh. Neither wants to follow Yahweh's commandments. When we are converted, Yahwah's commandments are written in our hearts and we no longer delight in sin; our "inward man" now wants to please our heavenly father, wants to keep his commandments. But the flesh is weak; it continues to rebel against Yahweh's will. Our spiritual man is no longer in agreement with the flesh; the spiritual man wants to perform Yahweh's commandments -- the very thing that the flesh does not wish to do. This is a lifelong war and, I agree with you, one that each of can win (with Yahweh's spirit). Those who overcome and endure unto the end are surely kings of the earth (they will have ruled their bodies of dust).

simcha

02-23-2002, 04:36 AM

Very well said, Hyssop.

Thanks!
Simcha ;)

cook

02-23-2002, 06:35 AM

Hello Hyssop:

In my previous post, my purpose was not to re-translate, but to give the INTENT of the author, Paul. Both you and Simcha, by your previous posts about Rom 7, are agreeing that Paul was still sinning, and therefore JUSTIFYING your trespasses by saying he, Paul was doing the same thing in Rom 7.

But Paul in 1Cor 9:26,27 says: I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

1Cor 9:27 would be BETTER translated as: Therefore, I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man who beats the air. No, I discipline my body and bring in into subjection, so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

The outcome of the KJV translation of Romans 7 is that Paul has one mind and his body has another "mind of its own". By the KJV translators using the word 'FLESH' the INTENT of Paul is erroneously construed. The word FLESH should have been translated CARNAL MIND.

Verse 25 of Rom 7 is the summation of the chapter which is very misleading in english: I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

This verse would be better translated: Thanks be to Yah, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yah; but with the carnal mind the law of sin.

And the next verse: Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are as Yahshua Messiah, who do not walk according to the carnal mind, but according to the Spirit.

Both you Hyssop and Simcha sound like my sons when they were young, saying "well so and so does it"! (Your making excuses for each other)

hyssop

02-23-2002, 01:22 PM

Cook,

Your first attempt at giving us Paul's "INTENT" in Rom 7 involved re-translating verbs very clearly written in the present tense into the past tense. Now you are clarifying scripture by adding words that are not there at all.

Cook: "So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yah; but with the carnal mind the law of sin."

I do not believe that Paul's INTENT was to let us know that his mind had two masters: Yah's law and the law of sin. Paul did not say the same mind (you added "same"); Paul did not say carnal mind (you added "mind").

Paul is saying that his spiritual mind is struggling with the carnal desires of his physical body. Paul said, "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."

Paul said that his spiritual mind was warring against his "members" (G3196 - a limb or part of the body). Paul then said, "who shall deliver me from the body (G4983. soma, so'-mah; from G4982; the body, used in a very wide application, lit. or fig.:--bodily, body, slave) of this death?"

It is very clear to me that, at the very moment that Paul was writing the chapter (in the present tense), he was battling the fleshly desires of the physical body in which his spiritual mind was residing.

cook

02-23-2002, 05:13 PM

Hello all:

It's becoming obvious to me that you have little understanding of Romans. First, in previous posts on this thread, you question whether a man has "free choice" and it is now becoming obvious that you think Paul didn't have free choice over the "members" of his own body. You paint a picture that somehow Paul is detached from his body, his mind UNABLE to control his body and his body just keeps on sinning even though his mind wills it not to.

All of Romans is tied together and Paul starts referring to "members" in 6:13 (I'll start in verse 12)

Rom 6:12: Therefore, do not allow sin to rule in your mortal body, so that you do not obey its sinful lusts. 13: And do not present the members of your body to sin, as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to Yah, as those who have returned from death to life, and the members of your body to Him as instruments of righteousness.

Paul is exhorting the brethren to RULE over their bodies, rather than allowing their old CARNAL MINDS to yield their bodies (members) to sin.

The next place Paul refers to "members" is verse 6:19 and I'll once again give the INTENT.

6:19: I put this in human terms because of the weakness of your CARNAL NATURE. For just as you used to offer the MEMBERS of your body as servants of uncleanness, and of sin (which leads) to (more) sin; so now yield your members as servants to righteousness and hnoliness (apartness).

Now it should be becoming obvious to you Hyssop, if you have any discernment, that the WAR isn't between you and your body, but between your carnal nature (the nature you were born with)and your determination to be led by the Spirit (the nature you were REBORN FROM ABOVE with).

Any thinking man knows that if he has an itch, his mind orders his hand (member) to ITCH IT.

Hyssop: I do not believe that Paul's INTENT was to let us know that his mind had two masters: Yah's law and the law of sin. Paul did not say the same mind (you added "same"); Paul did not say carnal mind (you added "mind").

Cook: YES, PAUL'S INTENT WAS TO LET US KNOW THAT HIS MIND HAD TWO MASTERS! Go to the very next chapter - Rom 8:6,7 - and this time I'll directly quote KJV.

Rom 8:6,7: For to be CARNALLY MINDED is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the CARNAL MIND is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The word "carnally" is the same word as "flesh" (#4561). Verse 8:5 drives the point home! (and I'll give the INTENT) - For they that are according to the CARNAL (flesh), SET THEIR MINDS ON THE THINGS OF THE FLESH (carnality); but they that are according to the Spirit, (set their minds on) the THINGS OF THE SPIRIT.

So yes, Hyssop, the battle is in the mind, the fleshly mind versus the spiritual mind.

The "body" is a whole other issue. One is the "body of Messiah" (everliving) and the other is the "body according to those 'in place of Messiah'" - Those of our Government coupled with religiosity - of which we are supposed to COME OUT OF.

But that's a story that you aren't ready for as long as your still denying what a witness is; or whether we have free will; or whether the battle is between our mind and bodies.

hyssop

02-24-2002, 10:15 AM

Cook,

I am given the impression that you feel you have the ability to exercise your "free will" and have total control of your fleshly body. So, I've got to ask you: <ul><li>Do you believe that to be so?</li><li>Are you without sin?</li><li>Do you perform every word of Yah every day without fail?</li><li>Do you have total control of your tongue? That is, do you never say anything that you wish, later, that you hadn't said?</li></ul> Should your answer be "yes" to the above, when did you gain this control? Was it at the moment of your conversion?

cook

02-24-2002, 12:40 PM

Hi Hyssop:

The best way for me to explain "free will" is to give you an example:

Let's say I get angry, with or without a cause, towards my brother. It is totally my choice to feel anger towards him. I make the choice myself in my own mind whether to be angry or not. He can't make me angry, I choose to be angry. There is no truth in the oft quoted phrase "you made me mad"; in reality "you" chose to be mad.

hyssop

02-24-2002, 04:04 PM

Hi Cook,

Have you exercised your "free will" and taken control of your fleshly body?<ul><li>Are you without sin?</li><li>Do you perform every word of Yah every day without fail?</li><li>Do you have total control of your tongue? That is, do you never say anything that you wish, later, that you hadn't said?</li></ul> Should your answer be "yes" to the above, when did you gain this control? Was it at the moment of your conversion?

simcha

02-25-2002, 03:42 PM

Cook

I would like to know your answers to Hyssop's questions also. Are you sinless? Do you live without sinning every day?

Simcha

cook

02-25-2002, 05:56 PM

Hello Hyssop and Simcha:

I'm thinking about how I will word it. Give me a little time please.

hyssop

02-25-2002, 06:39 PM

No problem, take your time . . . I look forward to your answer.

While we wait, I'd like to address something that you previously posted. <BLOCKQUOTE>Cook:<HR>The word "carnally" is the same word as "flesh" (#4561). Verse 8:5 drives the point home! (and I'll give the INTENT) - For they that are according to the CARNAL (flesh), SET THEIR MINDS ON THE THINGS OF THE FLESH (carnality); but they that are according to the Spirit, (set their minds on) the THINGS OF THE SPIRIT.<HR></blockquote>I absolutely agree with you when you equate carnal/carnally to flesh/fleshly. Now, let's take a look at the scripture you've quoted; if you don't mind I'll stick to the actual written words (underlines are mine):<BLOCKQUOTE>Rom 8:5 KJV<HR> For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.<HR></blockquote>It's pretty clear to me that Paul is not speaking about your two minds but, rather, two types of people: the unconverted and the converted. I don't know that I could rewrite it to make the intent any clearer. Paul compares "they that are after the flesh" to "they that are after the Spirit." Although you seem to be able to read this and conclude that the two "they's" are really the same people, I must disagree.

But . . . that's for later discussion :)

hyssop

03-02-2002, 06:36 AM

Hi, simcha:

I am hoping that we might get back to our earlier discussion about free will. I think that we both agree that no one can become a converted individual and instantly live sin-free; overcoming sin is a life-long process.

Now, it does seem that everyone has a free will . . . that is, everyone is continually faced with decisions regarding sin . . . and no one forces us to choose sin over righteousness or righteousness over sin . . . we all make up our own minds at that moment of choice.

My next question to those who believe that they have a free will is, "Can you exercise your free will from this point in your life to live a righteous life without sinning?" Most will admit that, as hard as they try and as much as they would like to, they have not totally overcome sin.

If we cannot choose to perform only righteousness, do we really have a free will? What is keeping us from performing only righteousness? Paul said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>Rom 7:23 KJV<HR>But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.<HR></blockquote>I think that Paul was saying that he was still in his physical body, and his physical body had fleshly/carnal desires that he could not always control. It wasn't that Paul didn't want to live without sin; he was struggling against his flesh.<BLOCKQUOTE>Rom 7:24-25 KJV<HR>[24] O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? [25] I thank G-d through [Yeshua Meshiach] our L-rd. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of G-d; but with the flesh the law of sin.<HR></blockquote>So then, if man cannot choose to perform only righteousness, does he really have a free will?

simcha

03-04-2002, 02:27 AM

Sorry, Hyssop, I had to think about this and still don't know that I have a good answer for you. I do believe scripture shows us that we do have free will, but even though our will is to not sin, we are so full of love for ourselves that we fail. Not only that, I am not sure we know what a sinless life is. We are so far removed from the time of Yeshua and from the culture of the Israelites that it is even difficult to do things like observe the Sabbath. But the commands that we do keep and seeking the heart of Hashem bring us such joy that we still try.

I think I am rambling and forgive me if I am. It is 5:00 a.m. in the morning and I am not too clear yet.

Simcha

hyssop

03-04-2002, 07:28 PM

Hi, simcha:

If one believes that all have a truly free will, I would think it hard to explain why, with billions and billions of people freely choosing their whole lives, that no one (apart from the Meshiach) has chosen to always perform righteousness.<BLOCKQUOTE>Rom 3 KJV<HR>[10] As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: [11] There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after G-d. [12] They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.<HR></blockquote>If it was just as easy to choose righteousness as it was to choose to sin, wouldn't you think that someone would have managed to choose rightly?

Well, I believe that you hit the bullseye, simcha, when you said, "we are so full of love for ourselves that we fail." The carnal (or fleshly) person is always busy satisfying his carnal (or fleshly) body. This is the natural man. Consider for a moment children: <UL><li>Their initial purpose in life is to satisfy their fleshly desires: they cry when they are hungry, because their flesh is telling them that it needs food; they cry when they are wet, because their flesh is telling them that it is uncomfortable and cold, etc.<li>What does a toddler learn?<UL><li>No! (That figures . . . how many times are they told "no" during the course of a typical day?)</li><li>Mine! (It does take long for a child to get selfish)</ul><li>And so it goes, as a child grows older, he finds new ways to please his flesh . . .</li></ul>And, if you can find one consistancy in scripture regarding this topic, it is that the flesh is weak, the flesh will not choose to follow Yahweh's laws . . .<BLOCKQUOTE>1 John 2:16 KJV<HR>For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.<HR></blockquote>For every scripture that appears to say that man has a free will, there are many more that clearly state man's condition of being a servant to sin.<BLOCKQUOTE>John 8:34 KJV<HR>[Yeshua] answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant (or slave) of sin.<HR></blockquote><BLOCKQUOTE>Rom 6 KJV<HR>[16] Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? [17] But G-d be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.<HR></blockquote>We know that a slave does not have a totally free will; he must follow the will of his master. There are other scriptures that indicate that man is a prisoner of his flesh. We know that a prisoner does not have a totally free will; he must follow the will of his keeper. The slave and the prisoner are both given choices, but always within the confines of their master/keeper's will. The natural man is given choices, too. The choice he is given is: "Which sins will you choose to do?" Not one natural man (no, not one) will always choose to perform righteous; therefore, the natural man is a slave to sin--he just gets to choose which sins he is going to perform.

All this having been said, how do you think that mankind's slavery to sin fits into Yahweh's plan?

simcha

03-06-2002, 02:24 AM

Hyssop,

Just as the Israelites had trouble leaving Egypt behind, we have the same problem. We are slaves, whether to sin or to Hashem. There would be no free will if we did not have choices. For there to be choices, we have to have that desire to sin.

Free will is a term that I could only find one time in scripture.

Philemon 1:10 I appeal to you for my child, whom I have begotten in my imprisonment, Onesimus,
11 who formerly was useless to you, but now is useful both to you and to me.
12 And I have sent him back to you in person, that is, sending my very heart,
13 whom I wished to keep with me, that in your behalf he might minister to me in my imprisonment for the gospel;
14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness should not be as it were by compulsion, but of your own free will

If we did not have the urge to sin along with the desire not to sin, it would be compulsion, not free will. However, we are no longer a slave to sin. Our hearts through Messiah are set on being a slave to Hashem. We are in the process of learning how, just like the Israelites were in the process during their journey out of Egypt.

Have a wonderful day!!!!!

Simcha:p

hyssop

03-11-2002, 08:06 AM

Simcha,

Sorry for the delayed response, I did not see your message for a couple of days.

In your last post, you pointed out a verse in the Bible that mentions "free will." Please don't misunderstand me, I believe that Hashem gives us many choices between which we can exercise our "free will" and choose our course of action. In the verses that you quoted, Paul wanted to send Onesimus to Philemon and was checking with Philemon to make sure that it was okay with him. Paul wanted Philemon to accept Onesimus of his own "free will" rather than having the situation forced upon him. There are many other scriptures that mention things that we can do of our own volition, but that does not necessarily mean that we can choose (in our natural state) not to sin.

And I think that you and I, for the most part, agree that this is so. Just as you said, "We are slaves, whether to sin or to Hashem." The natural man is a slave to sin, and the spiritual man is a slave to Hashem.
<BLOCKQUOTE>1 Cor 15 KJV<HR>[44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. [45] And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. [46] Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. [47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the L-rd from heaven. [48] As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. [49] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.<HR></blockquote>I think that you would agree that there has been no one (apart from Meshiach) that has exercised their "free will" to do nothing but righteousness all of their lives . . . and, that there will be no one in the future that will do so. Man is very predictable, isn't he? Paul said that the first man is of the earth, earthy. Adam said, "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh." Adam was a natural man--he had no more of a concept of right and wrong than a young child who has never been repromanded for the first time. Adam and Eve were flesh, and it was inevitable that they would follow the desires of the flesh rather than the commandment. It was Hashem's plan that they learn that sin is bad and something to be totally avoided; that is the lesson that Hashem wants us all to learn.