Jewish dietary laws [Archive] - Tzaddikim Discussion Forums

hyssop

06-14-2002, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by bantha on 06-14-2002 12:06 AM on the thread:
Tzaddikim Discussion Forums > General Theology > Biblical Study > The flesh of pigs

I hope I'm not jumping in too soon, I see there is more to follow, but I was wondering if you observe all of the dietary laws, or just the ones pertaining to what foods to eat. If you don't observe them all, how do you decide which ones to follow?

In doing a quick study on the dietary laws tonight, I discovered Hamburger helper is not Kosher... meat + milk.

Very interesting stuff!

:)
bantha

hyssop

06-14-2002, 05:05 PM

Hi, bantha:

At one time or another, my immediate family has observed all of the dietary restrictions. Now, when I say "dietary restrictions," I mean the dietary restrictions observed by the more observant Jews. You may not know this, but these Jews have two sets of pots, pans, glasses, dishes, and silverware: one for meat and one for milk. Many years ago, my wife and I began the process of conversion into Judiasm. At that time, we observed all of it.

Do you know the scriptural basis for the practice of separation of meat and milk?

bantha

06-14-2002, 05:53 PM

Hello hyssop ~

Like I said, I did a quick study on that last night, and I found out about the seperate utensils & stuff. It even mentioned seperating them in the dishwasher or doing seperate loads for meat & dairy.

I have no idea what the scriptural basis is (other than it says so), but I'm very eager to learn.

Thanks so much!

:)
bantha

hyssop

06-14-2002, 06:27 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>Exodus 23:19 NASB<HR>You shall bring the choice first fruits of your soil into the house of the L-rd your G-d. You are not to boil a kid in the milk of its mother.<HR></blockquote>What do you think?

bantha

06-14-2002, 08:20 PM

I don't know, that's why I'm asking the questions!:D

Seriously, I don't know. That scripture was brought to my attention a few months ago, and of course I ran across it last night. I don't have any idea why milk & meat are not to be combined.

Looking forward to hearing more though!

:)
bantha

hyssop

06-14-2002, 08:35 PM

The only commandment of which I am aware that refers to the meat/milk topic is "Don't boil a kid in its mother's milk." And, I would not boil a kid in its mother's milk. However, do I believe that this commandment equates to no Hamburger Helper, two sets of pots, pans, glasses, dishes, and silverware? No, I do not.

Yashua said that the Pharisees would "strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. (Mat 23:24 KJV)" I believe that this is what the Jew does today: they go to the nth degree with regard to the food laws and ignore the fundamentals (e.g. They clearly ignore Yahweh's commandments with respect to Pentecost).

And, why does this happen? Because they have not yet seen Yashua's fulfillment of Torah. When they see, watch out! They'll understand the Gospel in a heartbeat, and the "Christian" world won't know what hit them.

bantha

06-14-2002, 08:50 PM

I must say I'm finding much agreement here! (I thought there might be some deep meaning to the milk/meat thing) God said so, that's why!:)

My friend & I were talking about this on the phone last night, and I said the same thing about straining at a gnat & swallowing a camel.

I've learned so much the last few days!

:)
bantha

hyssop

06-15-2002, 06:14 AM

Some will explain how the Law has been fulfilled, and one no longer has to pay attention to Leviticus 11. Noah came long before the law and, yet, he was taught the difference between clean and unclean animals:<BLOCKQUOTE>Genesis 7 KJV<HR>[1] And the L-rd said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. [2] Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.<HR></blockquote>bantha, you made the statement:(I thought there might be some deep meaning to the milk/meat thing)There is a deep meaning to all of Yahweh's commandments. Some we think that we see, and others remain a mystery. I do not understand the spiritual lesson behind not boiling a kid in its mother's milk, but you can rest assured that there is a deeper lesson to be learned.

Clean and Unclean Meats - a deeper meaning

What makes a cow clean and a pig unclean? Our little group of believers has given it a lot of thought. I will relate some of what we've considered to be these spiritual lessons.<BLOCKQUOTE>Leviticus 11 KJV<HR>[3] Whatsoever parteth the hoof, and is clovenfooted, and cheweth the cud, among the beasts, that shall ye eat. [4] Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: as the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you. [5] And the coney, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you. [6] And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you. [7] And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you. [8] Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you.<HR></blockquote>A clean animal has a split hoof and chews the cud.

The split hoof -

We think that the split hoof represents the walk through life of a person of Yahweh. On one side, Yahweh's people live their physical life (like everyone else); on the other, they separate themselves from the physical cares of the world and walk through life with Yahweh and His word.

Chewing the cud -

When an animal chews the cud, it regurgitates its food from its first stomach and chews it again before taking it in. What is our spiritual food? Yahweh's word. Yahweh's people do not just wolf down their spiritual food, never to be seen again. They ruminate (meditate) on Yahweh's word.

In order to be truly clean, one has to pay attention to Yahweh's word and conform one's walk through life to it. There are similar lessons behind fins and scales, clean/unclean birds, creeping things, etc. Some we think we understand, others that we are still considering after many years.

Reading the Labels

One often learns spiritual lessons from the physical observance of Yahweh's law. If one is attempting to avoid common and unclean food, they will invariably find themselves carefully reading the labels on their potential food purchases. They also interrogate their waiter/waitress (e.g. Do you put bacon in your salad?). Is there a spiritual lesson to be learned? We think so. Yahweh wants His people to "read the labels." He wants His people to investigate the spiritual food (His word) that they are planning to consume. How many go to church/mosque/synagogue and simply take in everything that is said without question?

Easter Ham

This is undocumented conjecture on my part, but where do you think the custom of ham on Easter came from? Yashua's original church was Jewish, and then the Gentiles began converting to the faith. You can see Paul, throughout the Greek scriptures, trying to keep the flock "in line." He was constantly correcting the various church groups that were veering off the correct path. I believe that when the apostles died, a great apostasy occurred in the first church (1 Tim 4:1). The Gentiles brought into the church pagan practices (Sunday worship among them) and incorporated these practices and beliefs into the "Christian" system.

What would be the easiest way to find out if there were any still hanging on to the observance of Yahweh's dietary laws? When everyone gathers together, serve pig, and then watch for those who will not partake . . . just a theory

Ariel

06-30-2002, 08:29 AM

Well Shalom all im new in this forum,i usually post at eliyah.com (http://www.eliyah.com) well anyway i belive the issue of not eating milk and meat at the same time is an unneccesary burdensome commandment,"Like the pharisees straining at a gnat" nowhere in scripture does it say anything,this is somewhat of a twist the scripture said "Dont boil a kidd in its mothers milk" simple you boil it in water and not its own mothers milk.

The reasoning from the rabbis for the no milk and meat is something like this.

Milk=sustenance,life
Meat=Death,as far as the animal that has passed away

they say that you should not mix the two beacuse of symbolism,basically some esotericism.
:rolleyes:

well shalom for now
Ariel

P.S. we also must be careful not to stretch the word of YHVH in the sense of making it mean or say more than it actually does,like getting into some esoteric meanings,kosher is a good way of learning to differentiate between the clean and unclean, and in a spiritual sense the righteous from the unrighteous,or as hyssop mentioned true doctrine from false doctrine.

I do believe however this command about not eating milk and meat together is just a little bit of a stretch:cool:

not only that when you try to prove a point from the bible/torah you should always have more than two prefferably three scriptures to back up your point,so far all i see is the one scripture about boiling a kidd in its mothers milk which is a twist of scripture.Therefore taking the word of YHVH and making it of their own private interpretation.2nd timothy 3:16,17 reprove the false rabbi's
see matthew 23:4 about the burdensome pharisees"remember how many times they were rebuked for putting their traditions above the word of YHVH,pharisees still exist today.

well i will leave it at that note there
shalom olahm,baruch ha shem YHVH,baruch ha shem Yahushua Ha Maschiach:D

Ariel

06-30-2002, 08:51 AM

please enable IMG so i can use hebrew font tags
pretty pretty please:p
shalom daniel
blessed be YHVH and Yahushua

hyssop

06-30-2002, 05:54 PM

Shalom Ariel, and welcome to the Forum.

You are the first to request IMG tags. The only downside that I can see to turning them on would be:
1) Images make downloads slower for those with low-speed connections (as long as our members don't go crazy with IMG tags, that shouldn't be a big issue),
2) If the source address is changed or deleted, the image will not be displayed properly (I guess that's not a big deal),
3) Someone could pull images into their posts that might be offensive to others (and that shouldn't be a problem, since the Forum Rules address the topic and the poster risks being banned).

All things considered, we'll give it a try . . .

Ariel

06-30-2002, 07:12 PM

<img src="http://3n1promo.com/images2/yahueh.JPG">
<img src="http://3n1promo.com/images2/yahushua.JPG">

shalom all just testing the IMG feature

thank you hyssop for enabling IMG

YHVH bless

IMG makes posting so much more fun

Visitor

11-05-2002, 07:19 PM

The reasoning from the rabbis for the no milk and meat is something like this.

Milk=sustenance,life
Meat=Death,as far as the animal that has passed away

they say that you should not mix the two beacuse of symbolism,basically some esotericism.

When the Rabbis decided to make a new law, they where upfront about it and say the law is based on their authority. This is not the case with milk and meat nor is the reason as you have suggested...although there is such a concept it is not the reason

The only commandment of which I am aware that refers to the meat/milk topic is "Don't boil a kid in its mother's milk." And, I would not boil a kid in its mother's milk. However, do I believe that this commandment equates to no Hamburger Helper, two sets of pots, pans, glasses, dishes, and silverware? No, I do not.

The Torah says, "You shall not cook a kid in its mothers milk" Exodus 23:19, 34:26 Dt. 13:21

This is a case of Torah using a common example to describe a law. Take the law about somebody who is breaking and entering. If it is by night and you kill him then you are held innocent, if day you are guilty of murder. Is that really all that matters, no. The question is one of self defense, at night the perpetrator can be assumed violent but during the day he is likely afraid to be noticed by others (witnesses) and less prone to violence. So if someone is breaking into you house but is clearly not a threat personally, even if it is night you may not kill him. See Exodus 22:1. There are other examples.

"Kid" means any young animal (ie hooves and cloves as opposed to birds or fish). "Its mother" was not specific, it could be any "mother" not only its own...but we learn that this prohibition refers specifically to animals which give milk excluding fish and fowl (again,the Rabbis did prohibit this with fowl on their own authority lest one become confused since scripture calls fowl "meat" as well but they never claim it is a scriptural requirment)

(e.g. They clearly ignore Yahweh's commandments with respect to Pentecost).

No, it is observed the same way observed by Joshua (Joshua 5:11)

hyssop

11-05-2002, 10:30 PM

Visitor,

I believe that if one looks closely, they will find that the Jew today does not, in fact, observe Pentecost as observed by Joshua (Joshua 5:11). Let's take a look at when the wave sheaf offering was presented.<BLOCKQUOTE>Leviticus 23:11 KJV<HR> And he shall wave the sheaf before the L-RD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.<HR></blockquote>If I am not mistaken, this day is considered by the modern Jew to be the 16th of Nisan. They begin counting 50 on the day after the High Sabbath that always falls on Nisan 15.

According to Leviticus, the children of Israel could not eat parched corn in the land of Canaan until they had presented the wave sheaf offering (the offering of the firstfruits).<BLOCKQUOTE>Leviticus 23:14 KJV<HR> And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your G-d: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.<HR></blockquote>So, had they been following today's practices, they would not have been able to eat of the fruit of the land of Canaan until the 16th of Nisan. However, what does the book of Joshua say happened?<BLOCKQUOTE>Joshua 5 KJV<HR>[10] And the children of Israel encamped in Gilgal, and kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the month at even in the plains of Jericho.
<HR></blockquote>They observed the passover on the 14th of Nisan<BLOCKQUOTE>Joshua 5 KJV<HR>[11] And they did eat of the old corn of the land on the morrow after the passover, unleavened cakes, and parched corn in the selfsame day. [12] And the manna ceased on the morrow after they had eaten of the old corn of the land; neither had the children of Israel manna any more; but they did eat of the fruit of the land of Canaan that year.<HR></blockquote>They ate the parched corn on the day after the passover: 15 Nisan--one day earlier than the Jew today. Why? Because Joshua counted from the morrow after the weekly sabbath day and not the High Sabbath. Passover was on Saturday that year, they waved the firstfruit offering the following day, and then they ate of the fruit of the land of Canaan.

Further, what happens when one counts 50 from the day after the weekly Sabbath? The fiftieth day will always fall on the day after the seventh weekly Sabbath.<BLOCKQUOTE>Leviticus 23 KJV<HR>[15] And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete: [16] Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the L-RD.<HR></blockquote>Today, the Jewish Pentecost often falls on a day that is not the first day of the week (the morrow after the seventh sabbath). They don't follow Leviticus. They don't follow Joshua's example. They've got it wrong.

simchat_torah

11-05-2002, 11:32 PM

Shalom Hyssop and Visitor,

Hyssop,

First I'd like to address your comments.
I too came across the exact same problem, or what I thought to be the "incorrect" observance of Pentacost. However, it all again, just like everything else seems to do, turns around back to halachic observance. If you accept the rulings of the Beit Din, then they would have the authority to set up the observance fashioned after their rulings rather than the form in which Joshua followed. However, if you believe that the Ruach is no longer with the Beit Din then you would have the freedom to observe it in your own fashion.

It all comes back to Halacha.

Is the Spirit with the Beit Din? HaShem did promise that His spirit would rest on them, and that their decisions would be binding. Yet, we would have a question to ask...
which beit din???

If we answer with the Netzarim, the only fully observant messianic beit din, then we would follow the observance of Pentacost as Joshua did. Yet, if we answer that we must follow a different beit din, then we would be following after the Pharisaic traditions.

Visitor,

I agree with you concerning the idea behind the halacha of meat and dairy (more commonly called meat and cheese). Though the spirit behind the halacha was that of an esoteric observance, not to mix death and life (milk representing life and meat representing death) their decision became binding... if one adheres to that beit din. ... and it should be viewed as such if you submit to an Orthodox Beit Din. One should not view halacha as an esoteric idea, but as something binding by their authority.

However, I would have to disagree with your interpretation of the Torah passage. In the Hebrew the literal interpretation would not be "kid" as a 'child', but rather "kid" as in a baby goat. The word in Hebrew is in reference to a baby goat, our translations would be better suited if it stated "calf" as some more looser translations do (however, calf would then conjur up baby cow, not goat). Also, the Hebrew can be interpreted as the mother being owned by the calf, or in otherwords, that very mother's milk. Yet there is an entire section of literature in Judaism arguing both sides of this fence.... lol.

Anywho...

There literally was a pagan practice in ancient Babylon where they would actually boil a calf in it's own mother's milk. Kind of a sick perverted sacrafice if you think about it. Some messianics argue that this is the exact expression Hashem was giving an abstinence from. In otherwords, an abolition against paganism.

Another proof for this argument liies with what Abraham served the three Angelic hosts (meat and dairy). If this was a Torah based idea, then why was it acceptable? Yet there are also other arguments in Judaism addressing this very issue. Some say that he actually waited the prescribed ammount of time between the meat and dairy. Yet, where is this time recorded?

Sorry, had to play the Devil's Advocate for a second.

Yet, I can also see the beauty of observing the abstaining of joining meat and dairy. The meaning behind it is quite extrodinary....
but alas, it all once again boils down to halachic observance.

oy vey, will it ever end????
All these questions concerning halachic observance, and too few answers.

Shalom mishpochah,
Japheth.

hyssop

11-07-2002, 06:32 PM

Shalom Yafet,

<BLOCKQUOTE>Exodus 18 KJV<HR>[13] And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people: and the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening. [14] And when Moses' father-in-law saw all that he did to the people, he said, What is this thing that thou doest to the people? why sittest thou thyself alone, and all the people stand by thee from morning unto even? [15] And Moses said unto his father-in-law, Because the people come unto me to inquire of G-d: [16] When they have a matter, they come unto me; and I judge between one and another, and I do make them know the statutes of G-d, and his laws.<HR></blockquote>One man (Moses) could not handle the questions of millions of people regarding how Hashem wanted the Torah observed. Moses needed help. So, his father-in-law suggested a method by which the people could have their questions about Torah observance answered.<BLOCKQUOTE>Exodus 18 KJV<HR>[21] Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear G-d, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens: [22] And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear the burden with thee.<HR></blockquote>The purpose, as I understand it, of the Beit Din is to make judgements regarding the observance of Torah . . . in the absence of specific commands from Hashem. These judgements must not conflict with the Torah itself.<BLOCKQUOTE>Deuteronomy 4 KJV<HR>[1] Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the L-RD G-d of your fathers giveth you. [2] Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the L-RD your G-d which I command you.<HR></blockquote>Is it okay to check the oil in your car on the Sabbath? Obviously, one will not find a specific reference to automobiles in the Torah. So, how does one reach an answer? One must make a judgement based upon the information that is specifically stated in Hashem's word. Among many things, one would have to consider whether or not checking the oil was "servile work," an activity prohibited from being performed and explicitly written in the Torah. The Beit Din's job is to make these determinations.

Can the Beit Din rule that it is now okay to murder or to steal? I don't think so. Such a rule would negate specific commands given to us by the Creator.

The Torah states, "Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days." Can the Beit Din rule that we should now count fifty from Nisan 16 to a day that can be any day of the week? I don't think so. In fact, I believe that one can find several scriptures supporting the idea of rejecting anyone (or group) that espouses activities that conflict with Hashem's commandments. Y'shua, for one, had this to say about going against Torah:<BLOCKQUOTE>Matthew 5:19 KJV<HR> Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.<HR></blockquote>If I am not mistaken, the Sadducees ran the temple in Y'shua's lifetime and observed Pentecost by counting from the weekly Sabbath, as did Joshua. Some time after the destruction of the temple, the observance of Pentecost was changed to what is practiced by the Jew today and conflicts with very specific commands stated in Hashem's Torah.

simchat_torah

11-07-2002, 07:27 PM

Excellent points Hyssop.

In fact, I believe it can be proven that the Netzarim observed after the same fashion as the Saducees concerning this matter (it has to do with passover and when Y'shua and his disciples followed it's traditions, ect.).

"The purpose, as I understand it, of the Beit Din is to make judgements regarding the observance of Torah . . . in the absence of specific commands from Hashem. These judgements must not conflict with the Torah itself."

That would be partially correct. I would also insert that they interpret the commands that are given, as you gave the clear example of "what is considered 'work' on the Sabbath."

However, the argument given by the Pharisetical council of the changing of the observance date of Pentacost is that the passage, ""Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days," remains vague. I personally do not agree, I believe it to be clear and concise, yet their argument is that the passage can be interpreted according to their halacha.

Unfortunately, I do not have my research materials here with me at work (I'm on the job right now) but I'd love to share soon, and very soon, where Y'shua specifically cursed the established Beit Din of his time. As well, I might try to present the idea of an ancient expectation that the Messiah would correct Halacha when he comes. He was expected to not only give correct halacha, but establish some form of righteous halacha in his coming.

Shalom,
Japheth.

Hyssop, that might be where you and I would stand in agreement, that the halacha is tainted. However, as the Beit Din was promised to stand through time, and that the Ruach HaKodesh would guide their decisions, we have to first examine "Which Beit Din currently has the authority of HaShem???" (that is, if one chooses to acknowledge that there even is a Beit Din with the Ruach up it today)

hyssop

11-07-2002, 08:20 PM

Yafet,

You stated: "However, as the Beit Din was promised to stand through time, and that the Ruach HaKodesh would guide their decisions . . ."

I am wondering if you have a specific quote in mind. I might hazard a guess, but it's far easier to query the source. ;)

p.s. Are these your normal work hours?

Laylah Tov

Valid Name

11-08-2002, 01:03 AM

Okay Hyssop. Would you like to get a translator for the board? I thought I was living in St. Louis, however, I just learned that St. Louis is acctually short for Jerusalem. You know, sometimes these things pass me up. Stop paying attention for a second, and WHAM! they turn the lights out.:p

emaN dilaV

simchat_torah

11-10-2002, 07:23 PM

Hyssop,

I suppose I never did answer you... lol...
Yeah, my normal work hours are 5pm-1am sun
and 7pm - 3am (or so) Mon - Thurs.

he he he... pretty gross hours, eh?

hyssop

11-11-2002, 03:39 AM

Actually, I'm somewhat of a night owl. So, it might not be too bad. I imagine it's what one gets used to.

How about an answer to the question that I posed just prior to your work hours? Where do you find the indication that: ". . . the Beit Din was promised to stand through time, and that the Ruach HaKodesh would guide their decisions . . ."?

simchat_torah

11-11-2002, 11:15 PM

Actually, Hyssop, I had at one point read through all those passages quite some time ago. I'll have to go back and look at my notes, but possibly I mentioned them in the discussion in "halachic authority"???
I'm not sure...

I've been ridiculously busy... building a computer for a friend, moving, new job, posting an absurd ammount under the thread "What was Y'shua's sacrafice???" (lol)... and I have yet to answer you as well as visitor in Halachic Authority....
Shame on me....

Dont worry my friend, I'll soon get around to looking up some of what I've been challenged to.

I don't ignore challenges, and I let others know when I'm too busy to get to them... he he he.... or too busy with my own agendas... (ie What was Y'shua's sacrafice??? ) LOL

Hope your not angry...

-J.

hyssop

11-11-2002, 11:44 PM

Not at all angry . . . and very patient.

Actually, I thought that you had a NT quote in mind. Take your time. I just wasn't sure that it was on your "to-do" list. :cool:

simchat_torah

12-11-2002, 08:07 PM

What patience my friend... he he he...

Ok ok ok, here's a small answer, and I'll come back to this again later, but right now I'm somewhat on a break at work...

In Moshe's last address to the people he stated:

"The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until Shiloh comes and to him shall be the obedience of his peoples.

Shiloh is a Jewish idiom referring to the Messiah derived from the word "a gift to him" (shin, yod, lamed, vav).

Talmud tractate Sanhedrein 98b states:

"Rab. said: The world was created only on David's account.
Samuel said: On Moses' account.
R. Johnathan said: For the sake of the Messiah. What is his [the Messiah's] name?
The School of R. Shila said: His name is Shiloh, for it is written, until Shiloh come."

The authority used to judge during capital cases was referred to as the "scepter" or "rod". This is also displayed in the person of the Messiah:

"And there shall come forth a Rod out of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots."
-Yeshiyahu (Isaiah) 11:1

Thus the Rabbis have derived that the Beit Din shall stand until the Moshiach comes to correct and perfect halacha... at that point, the Messiah would have his authority established by his own hand and mouth upon the earth when he returns to rule from the seat of judgement. Then and only then will the authority of the beit din be lifted back to him.

Shalom achi,
Yafet.

ATAT

12-28-2002, 08:46 PM

hyssop, I am an Orthodox Jew.

I tried reading your argument about Shevous ('Pentecost') and before I jump in and work through your argument, I noticed that you used Joshua as the primary basis for your thinking.

Shouldn't you have based / limitted all of your argument from the Five Books of Moses?

Secondly, have you investigated the reasons why Judaism does what it does?

Put more directly, how is it that Judiasm chose to do it when they do it?

(I'm just curious if you know.)

Thirdly, on what basis do you have a Nissan at all? Not the Japanese car, rather, how do you have any clue when Nissan begins at all? How do you know when Nissan is at all?

Thanks in advance for your replies

hyssop

01-19-2003, 06:12 PM

ATAT,

Please accept my apologies for not answering your post. Valid Name told me about it this past Sabbath, and I didn't know (or remember) that you had posted.

Shouldn't you have based / limitted all of your argument from the Five Books of Moses?

What I can see in the Torah does carry a lot of weight, when it comes to decisions about observance. And, in this case, I see the Torah state that the counting continue "unto the morrow after the seventh Sabbath." That would put Shavuot on a Sunday every year. The current observance is not consistant with Torah. This alone would be evidence enough to make me choose to observe Shavuot differently than the modern-day Jew. We, however, have further evidence in scripture to indicate that current observance is in error and, hence, my reference to Joshua.

Secondly, have you investigated the reasons why Judaism does what it does?

Not in-depth. I wonder, though, if there can really be any valid reason for not following the commandment as written.

Put more directly, how is it that Judiasm chose to do it when they do it?

I have been told in the past that there were actually two schools of thought on the subject within Judaism two thousand years ago. The Sadducees ran the Temple and observed Shavuot by always counting from the 1st day of the week and ending on the 1st day of the week; the Pharisees thought that it should be observed as it is today. Some time after the destruction of the second Temple, Shavuot's observance was changed to it's current state. This could be way off-base, and I'm open for suggestions.

(I'm just curious if you know.)

I know little of past history. I'm just stating what I read in the Tanach (and other sources, as available).

Thirdly, on what basis do you have a Nissan at all? Not the Japanese car, rather, how do you have any clue when Nissan begins at all? How do you know when Nissan is at all?

If you want me to admit that I look to the Jew for my information regarding Nissan, I do. Frankly, I've wondered if they are adding the extra months appropriately to make Passover correctly fall in its season, but I have no scriptural reason to doubt that they are observing it correctly. If I did, I would choose to follow Torah over tradition.

ATAT

01-27-2003, 04:05 AM

Doesn't the Bible as well as Jesus say to turn to the Pharisees (rabbis) for any decisions about the laws?