Yeshua: G-d or g-d? [Archive] - Tzaddikim Discussion Forums

Matthew23

07-04-2002, 08:43 PM

I would like to say some things about one of my favorite bible verses, John 8:58:

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Hmmm. Why didn't J-sus say, "before Abraham was, I was"? Wouldn't He have made the point that He did exist before Abraham and therefore would have known about his rejoicing? Sure that would have worked. But J-sus was saying more than just the fact that He existed "before Abraham was." The Jews who heard Him say it knew this, and boy oh boy did they have quite a reaction!

The Greek Septuagint was the "bible of the day, the OT of J-sus' day" when J-sus made the "I am" statement to the Jews, who knew much about the scritptures. "Ego eimi" is the Greek phrase which John quoted J-sus as saying in John 8:58 (as well as others).That happens to be the same exact phrase that was used in the Greek Septuagint which the Jews that J-sus was speaking to were so familiar with. Where is this phrase used in the Greek OT? Exodus 3:14 And God said to Moses, "I AM (ego eimi) WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you."

back to John 8...
The Jews were ticked off at this point. Actually they were ticked off before this statement. You just know they were looking for an excuse to get rid of this guy. Then He says THIS! And the Jews go "Hey! Open season on the guy who just committed blasphemy! Aim your weapons!" Okay, maybe that's not exaclty what was said:). And whay does J-sus do? He high tails it out of there!

Let's talk about this for a bit... Why DID He high tail it out of there? Why didn't He say to the Jews: "hold on just a minute here, what are you getting ready to stone ME for? I never said that I AM G_D!"

He didn't stop to say to them that He, uh, isn't G-d, either.

Thummim

07-14-2002, 11:11 AM

Matthew23,

...Perhaps what Moses is told to say is, "By the GD who exists, I am sent unto you". YHWH the Eloheem of your fathers, Abraham Isaac and Jacob, has sent me to you. YHWH is his name and how he is to be remembered from now on, throughout all your generations, forever.

...That the author of Exodus was creating a name for his GD is further supported in {Exodus 6: 3,}, and in {Exodus 33: 19 - Ex. 34: 6}. I doubt that the authors of the NT really understood that a link between the name of the tribe of YHWH and the tribe of YaHudaH {i.e. Nu: 6:27}, was being made in compliance with Deut. 12: 5, in designating the tribe that YHWH would "put" his name into, which makes the statement given in Jn. 8: 56 - 58, ludicrous. {Before Abraham was, I AM} These people who wrote the NT, seem unaware of "hashem". They are busy molding a man into their mangod idol of flesh. But YHWH proclaims "YHWH", which only omits the dalet in the name of YaHu(d)aH, to designate that his name will be served and linked to Israel, through the tribe of YaHudah. Since this naming of names, the tribe of the throne of Israel, {Judah} has the authority of GD's name behind it.

--> YHWH chose a tribe to "put" his name into.

67 Moreover he refused the tabernacle of Joseph, and chose not the tribe of Ephraim:

68 But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved.

69 And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever.

....Michael

Matthew23

07-14-2002, 03:06 PM

Hello, Micheal

By saying the statement is ludicrous, do you mean to say that you don't think J-sus ever made that statement (before Abraham was, I am)? Do you believe that He was misquoted?

Thummim

07-15-2002, 07:25 AM

...Matthew23, the authors of the NT no doubt want to prove that Jesus is GD to its readers. However, this is done without these authors having any understanding of hashem. Their lack of knowledge shows in their statement. Which is the answer given to Moses? Is the name of GD, I AM, or is it YHWH? If you conclude that GD's name is I AM, then the authors make a little sense. But they are wrong. YHWH said, I am the GD who exists. YHWH is my name. I AM isn't given as his name. Hashem is the centerpiece of the book of Exodus. YHWH now has a name that links him to his people. The authors of the NT do not think in terms of hashem. They are christians who believe what they are writing. These authors do not practice the faith of their people. They are the outsiders in their world. Their statement is ludicrous to a JEW. But to a christian, it makes perfect sense. Jesus {the authors some years later} doesn't build upon the rock of David.

....Michael

Matthew23

07-15-2002, 07:09 PM

Hi Michael.

Are you a Jew?

Thummim

07-16-2002, 11:55 AM

...Yes, though of non JEWish parents. I actually have a little bit of a christian background, though it was many decades ago {64 - 67} since I walked that path. I found that I {myself} couldn't care about the JEWish people and be a christian. There are too few JEWs in the christian heaven for me. I also favor pro-Jewish arguments. I don't like the role assigned JEWs, as spiritually unwise people who would kill the son of GD. Let someone else play that role. Obviously, I cannot except that "Jesus" is any form of a deliverer to the JEWish people. {that is not what followed him} And on the question of him being GD, not unless Caesar was also a god.

....Michael

Searching

07-16-2002, 01:33 PM

Greetings Micheal and Matthew,

I must say Micheal, in whatever heaven there is, there is room for all. You being a Jew to me intreges me, not that I might convert you, but that I might learn more of the Jewish religion. 'Christianity' rules the airwaves, and a false one at that. Paul stayed three years with Jews and convienced them using their own scriptures that Messiah has come in flesh. I wouldn't mind seeing that today.

'Christians' now have thier "New" Testement which they believe superseeds the Old, and much less, can contradict it at will. If the New is the True New, then it must build. The Apostles must have used only insight into what they saw in the Old to create the New. Somehow things like the Book of Mormon have come around which many feel can pick up things from the blue and be true.

Cancelation of Feasts, New Moons and Sabbath for more 'conventional' holidays is a good example. No where would anyone get that from the Old Testement. Now I can bring you a New and tell you this is what the Father wants? I don't think so.

So anywho my point is Good. I am very glad you are a Jew, and much less turned from 'Christianity'. A false version a Christianity it may have been, yet you did your homework and figured it out. Congratulations. I have seen a few lately who have done the same.

Now If I might ask a question of for both you and Matthew:

In heaven (I don't even know if the Jew believes in heaven) what will we be like? What is the state? Are we individuals or all one?

Peace,
Searching

Thummim

07-17-2002, 07:47 AM

...Searching, trying to build a case for either heaven {apart from "up"} or a case for hell {apart from the grave}, from the pages of the tanakh, is not very rewarding. The dreams and visions of the prophets could suggest some kind of heaven, but they are only dreams and visions. Making a Hell out of sheol, is even more difficult, since all of us go there. I like to think that all of us will give back to YHWH that which is his. Our lives for sure. Our image also. {since it looks like GD, it might as well be his own} It is written that the spirit returns to he who gave it. Christianity projects too evil of an outcome for the JEWish people, to house my faith. I, like you, went looking for new wood to build my house from. The tanakh somehow misses the christian interpretation of it. Have you seen what the JEWish people end up with at the conclusion of the NT? Who rules over us this time? And when you take a head count of the JEWs that pass the qualifications, there is only a remnant of us who have bowed the knee to "Jesus", to gain entry. Unless we bow, we don't get in. Where have I heard this before? Most of us get the oven. {lake of fire} It is interesting that we would write such a book for ourselves. But then christianity added it's part to favor themselves. Isn't the rewarding of the JEWish people in the christian concience, the same reward that Hitler gave us? Is this coincidence, or is there a connection. Now I believe that what christians give the JEWish people, is what they give to the name of YHWH. That will not set christianity up in favor with YHWH. {four of the five letters in our own name}

....Michael

Matthew23

07-17-2002, 07:32 PM

Hello Michael,

Christianity is a Jewish movement. Paul was a devout Jew (Acts 26:4-5). It was this Jewish man who pioneered the Christian church. Most scholars agree that 1Corinthians was written before any of the four gospels...

1 Corinthians 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures...

That sums up the Christian creed right there. And it came from a Jewish man. Though Paul was not the writer of the Gospel of John, I'm sure <i>he</i> understood Hashem. Paul was a Jew who believed what he was writing. And his statements were definitely ludicrous to many people, people who put him in jail and ultimately martyring him. He must have had something very extraordinary happen to him in order to speak so boldly on behalf of something so "ludicrous" (Acts 26:12-29).

I have never met a Jewish person before. So this is pretty cool for me to talk to one. I hope I haven't offended you at all. I hope we can continue to have some good conversations here.

Matt

Thummim

07-18-2002, 07:51 AM

quote:
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1 Corinthians 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures...
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...And if it is not according to the scriptures? Is "Jesus" supposed to be Jonah preaching to the Ninevites, "refrain from violence", or else? The story of Jonah has nothing to do with Israel. Neither are the Ninevites called a righteous people. The Romans surely didn't repent of their violence. For that matter, neither has christianity throughout its history.

...There is no atonement for intentional sin, that "Jesus" could "fulfill".

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24 Then it shall be, if ought be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour unto YHWH, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, (*and one kid of the goats for a sin offering*).

25 And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto YHWH, and their sin offering before YHWH, for their ignorance: Nu. 15: 24, 25

30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth YHWH; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

31 Because he hath despised the word of YHWH, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him. Nu. 15: 30, 31

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...The only path to the resolution of sin, is through YHWH. An atonement can be made for the sins we don't intend to make. But when we sin intentionally, we must work it out with YHWH alone. He is the offended party who vindicates his people.

22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee. Isa. 44: 22

....Michael

Matthew23

07-20-2002, 06:32 AM

Well, at least you do agree with me that the NT makes it clear that J-sus is G-d!:)

Thummim

07-21-2002, 07:36 AM

...Yes, Matthew23, the NT has its god. But don't examine its pillars too close. Most show a weakness upon close examination. It takes "spiritual" interpretation to believe that "christianity is what the tanakh is all about. Simple things such as,

1. a passover lamb is not a sin offering, they are shown as still required in Nu. 28: 16 - 25

2. "there is no atonement for deliberate sin, that will circumvent the law {Nu. 15: 30, 31}

3. The messiah is a herald to peace {Isa. 40: 1, 2; Isa. 53: 5} {the absence of war}

4. The one who is pierced in Zech. 11: 10 is pierced fighting a battle for Jerusalem which is eventually won by Yahudah. {check the paragraph markers}, etc, etc.

...It goes on and on. The christian interpretation of Psalms 22nd chapter, becomes suspect, when you find that "lions" don't use nails, and that the authors of the account of the robe upon which lots are cast, cannot agree on color, who gives the robe, or where the robe is given. It all comes up contrived. The intercessor of Isa. 53 is required to make the authors people "all" righteous {Isa. 53: 5, 6, 8, and 11} read --> ("my people", "us all" and by his stripes, we are healed? "Justify" = righteous ("tzadek", vs. 11) We JEWs are made righteous by this intercession. {gentiles are not mentioned} But ask the many faiths of the cross, if the JEWs are saved and see how they stumble. Add all this to the fact that the rock of David, which is found in Ex. 28: 21, bears the name of YaHudaH, the name of the tribe of Israel that also bears the name of GD, "YHWH". It is this name (hashem) that makes Davids throne an everlasting throne. In Isa. 9: 6, 7, the name of GD sits upon the throne of David. {upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom to order it and to establish it} It would have been better if "christianity" would have builded their faith upon the rock of David, and would have blessed the name of YaHudaH instead of being a curse against it.

....Michael

Matthew23

07-21-2002, 01:40 PM

Hi, Michael.

I'd like to reply first about the Passover Lamb...

The original Passover Lamb- what was accomplished through its blood? The answer is- freedom from the bondage of Egypt. And all of their firstborn were spared because of the covering of the blood of the lamb.

Here is the comparison to Messiah: He is our Passover Lamb in that His blood has freed us from the bondage of sin. We have eternal life because of the covering of His blood.

more to come...

Thummim

07-21-2002, 02:13 PM

...Matthew23, only the firstborn were delivered. They were the only ones who were under threat. The blood of the paschel lamb is synonomus with the blood of circumcision. It says that YHWH's people are in covenant to him and that he makes a distinction between the people of Israel and the Egyptians. {Ex. 11: 7}

...Read Nu. 28: 16 - 25 and note that all atonements are still required. Further note that no atonement mediates intentional sin. The path that "Jesus" took, is the wrong one. You should know, when Isa. 53 is interpreted not to cover all those whom the author names, that something is wrong. Now answer me this, how does Isa. 52: 11 jump 500 years to Isa. 52: 13, and "Jesus"? Isa. 52: 11 clearly show the authors people returning to Jerusalem with holy vessels in hand.

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But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, {deliberatly} whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth YHWH; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Because he hath despised the word of YHWH, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him. Nu. 15: 30, 31

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And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which YHWH hath made with you concerning all these words. Ex. 24: 8

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The only way to get past the truth, is to use a little bit of "spiritual interpretation" as christians commonly do when they want to twist the truth.

....Michael

Matthew23

07-24-2002, 07:09 PM

Hi Michael.

I've been thinking a lot about something you said... that there are not enough Jews in the "Chrisitian heaven."

Isaiah 49:6 he says:
"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."

Here in Isaiah, the Messiah is described as, not only one who will restore the Jews, but also be a "light for the Gentiles" as well.

Consider the ratio...

Of all the Jews who ever lived, how many will be in the "Christian heaven?"
Of all the "Gentiles" who ever lived, how many will be in the "Christian heaven?"

something to think about

I'm getting tired of this hot Missouri weather!

Thummim

07-25-2002, 08:13 AM

He came unto his own, and his own received him not. Jn. 1: 11

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He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And this is the condemnation, {of JEWs} that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. John. 3: 18, 19

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Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Jn. 14: 6

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If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. Jn. 15: 6

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Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4: 10 - 12

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But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Gal. 1: 8

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...The book of John uses the term "the JEWs" 65 times in its texts. "The JEWs" are the bad guys of this book. They have rejected the man-god "Jesus", and the author of this book cannot except this. It is obvious that "the JEWs" are not welcome in a christian heaven, where the name of "YHWH" is to the JEWish people, more than the name of "Jesus". Now, which messianic text doesn't promise salvation to the JEWish people?

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Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.

Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of YHWH'S hand double for all her sins.

The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of YHWH, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Isa. 40: 1 - 3

...but what does "Jesus cry unto Jerusalem?

Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation. Lk. 19: 42 - 44

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...This doesn't speak of "Jesus". He is not the ambassador of peace that is written of in Isa. 53: 5. He brings no peace to his people, and he does not tell them that their iniquity is pardoned. But it is in Isa. 44: 22, in the time of Cyrus, where these words are spoken. But christianity cannot both own the gates of heaven and also allow for a righteous JEWish population which passes through them freely. Isa. 45: 17 says that there is an everlasting salvation that comes in the time of Cyrus {note paragraph markers} that covers this people for all time. Isa. 54: 9 underlines that the author's people have an Eloheem that will not be angry with his people again.

I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee. Isa. 44: 22

...A question concerning the following verses of text?

Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; {Babylon} be ye clean, that bear the vessels of YHWH.

For ye shall not go out {of Babylon} with haste, nor go by flight: for YHWH will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rereward.

Vs. 13; Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.

As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:

So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider. Isa. 52: 11 - 15

...How does Isa. 52: 11, which has the holy vessels in hand for the trip back to Jerusalem, jump 500 years to verse 13 of Isa. 52, to accommodate "Jesus" as messiah of Isa. 53?

....Michael

Matthew23

07-25-2002, 06:45 PM

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and YHWH hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased YHWH to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of YHWH shall prosper in his hand.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic by asking this, I just want to know what you believe....
If J-sus is not the suffering servant that is spoken of in these scriptures, then who do you believe is spoken of here?

Matt

p.s. I apologize for anwering your question with a question...
I don't have an answer to your question right now, I need to dig my nose in and find it out.:)

Thummim

07-26-2002, 06:44 AM

...Matthew23, first I think we need to find some "innocence" to allow for a suffering servant to be "included" with those who deserved the punishment, who also lived prior to the time of Cyrus, to allow for the timing that Isa. 52: 11 gives us.

Jeremiah, Chapter 24

1 YHWH shewed me, and, behold, two baskets of figs were set before the temple of YHWH, after that Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon had carried away captive Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah, and the princes of Judah, with the carpenters and smiths, from Jerusalem, and had brought them to Babylon.

2 One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad.

3 Then said YHWH unto me, What seest thou, Jeremiah? And I said, Figs; the good figs, very good; and the evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil.

4 Again the word of YHWH came unto me, saying,

5 Thus saith YHWH, the God of Israel; Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good.

6 For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.

7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am YHWH: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.

8 And as the evil figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so evil; surely thus saith YHWH, So will I give Zedekiah the king of Judah, and his princes, and the residue of Jerusalem, that remain in this land, and them that dwell in the land of Egypt:

9 And I will deliver them to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth for their hurt, to be a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse, in all places whither I shall drive them.

10 And I will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, among them, till they be consumed from off the land that I gave unto them and to their fathers. Jer. chap. 24

...This is one possibility. Does YHWH divide his people into two parts, one who choose him {the good figs} and another who choose evil? {the bad figs} So the good sheep suffer with the bad sheep. But when the year of release comes, all go free. This is likely because of the primary reason for the captivity in the first place as addressed by Jeremiah. In chapter 34 of Jeremiah, the year of release is not honored by Zedekiah, who returns to servitude all the servants that had been released as the Levitical law requires. So YHWH empties Jerusalem until the next year of release comes, and then he frees "all" of his servants. All Israel now being "righteous", as decreed in Isa. 44: 22, after the intercession of the the righteous servant.

...The next possibility that I want to mention, is the author himself. He is the one who intercedes for Israel through the very pages of the book of Isaiah that we read. Isa. 50: 4 - 11 fits the author of Isaiah very well. Isn't the tool of the intercessor of Isa. 53, his knowledge by which he makes all Israel righteous?

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant "justify" {"tzadek" - make righteous} many; for he shall bear their iniquities. {he makes his soul guilty for the sins of his people, to plead their case as intercessor, Vs. 10} Isa. 53: 11

...These are two possibilities for the time of Isa. 52: 11's release of the captives. But I'm sure that another is possible. Perhaps the author never intended to name the intercessor. It is written that no one interceded for Israel, except YHWH, in the book of Isaiah. "Isa. 59: 16" We know what follows this "intercession" of Isa. 53. The desolate lands are re-occupied by YHWH's people. "Isa. 54: 1 - 3"

....Michael

Matthew23

08-06-2002, 03:30 PM

Hello Michael.

I have found a particular piece of the New Testament to be reletive to what we have talked some about. Please, when you have some spare time, take a few moments to read Romans, chapters 9,10,11. If you do that, please let me know what you think about it.

Sincerely,
Matt

Thummim

08-07-2002, 11:18 AM

...Matt, Romans chapters 9 - 11 now read, I have to say that Paul makes some mistakes in what he writes. The leadoff verse of Isa. 65: 1 is not speaking of gentiles, but of a tribe of Israel that now worships other than YHWH, and not in the righteousness of the covenant. If we jump two paragraphs to Isa. 65: 13 -16, we will see that both the good servants of YHWH and those who say to him, "come not close to me for I am holier than thou" are of his own people. Nowhere in Isa. 65 is there any further reference to "exceptable gentiles, as a nation". There is no collaboration at all, that "gentiles are being spoken of. When YHWH identifies both peoples, he separates his servants {as being good} from those who eat swines flesh. {the bad guys} There are only these two groups of people being mentioned. Both are from the same house, but with the new name, as mentioned in Isa. 65: 15, one of the people's is no longer called by his name. Isa. 66: 17 further identifies the time of these words as belonging to Isa. 66: 20, where Jerusalem is reoccupied. At the time that they are written, Jerusalem is desolate and without its peoples. What YHWH does to the {gentile nations} is well written up in the texts. Babylon is about to fall. That is the report that Isaiah makes.

...A big problem that translators of the tanakh have, is in not understanding that the word "goy'im" also covers the nations of Israel. It should always be translated "nations", and not "gentiles".

...Who has believed the report {that YHWH shall deliver his people from Babylon} is asked in Isa. 53: 1. An intercessor {likely the author himself} makes intercession for YHWH's captive people. Cyrus is identified as the one who will set the captives free. He is mentioned by name. The following verses of text belong to the time of the Babylonian captivity.

10 Go through, go through the gates; prepare ye the way of the people; cast up, cast up the highway; gather out the stones; lift up a standard for the people.

11 Behold, YHWH hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of YHWH: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken. Isa. 62: 10 - 12

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That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid. Isa. 44: 28

Chapter 45

1 Thus saith YHWH to his anointed, {messiah} to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates {of Babylon}; and the gates shall not be shut;

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...If you look at the gates of Babylon, the proper time to look at, for a proper understanding of Isaiah's words becomes apparent. Paul is without a good understanding of what he is reading. Paul's argument that there is a casting off of Israel after Jerusalem is reoccupied, or that a gentile people becomes more important to YHWH in his sceme of things, is false. No such thing is prophecied. What fails of the prophets words, belongs to the loss of knowledge of {urim and thummim}, where the relationship between the name of YHWH and the name of YaHudaH are lost. {see Ezra 6: 23, and Neh. 7: 65} This "linking of names" is the blessing of Israel. {Nu. 6: 27} No name, no blessing is what Mal. 2: 2 is declaring. YHWH's strength to deliver his people, is a component of his name. I am out to restore this "garment of praise" to the possession of the people of YaHudaH. {*they/we*, bear the name of praise, but without understanding} This name is also the glory of YHWH Elohenu, that is held higher than the glory of the heavens. My hope is that the name of YHWH {and its associated understanding} can protect JEWish lives from the wrath of this world if JEWish possesion of hashem is restored.

....Michael

Matthew23

08-08-2002, 02:10 PM

psst... hey Michlael, I think we're the only people who have used the message board here for a couple of weeks...

WHERE IS EVERYONE?

Thummim

08-08-2002, 02:53 PM

...There is a few more of us at Lo-ammi. Perhaps you would like to jump over to this site.

http://www.lo-ammi.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?forumid=1

...Hyssop maintains both sites. I've noticed that Tzaddikim is not used much. I jump between both. Most of what I post is on Lo-ammi.

....Michael

tonyshaw

08-19-2002, 06:44 PM

To Mathew23:

This is less about the thread, and more about my point of view to something I noted in your post on:07-04-2002 10:51 AM

I prefer KJV over ANY other version. I am currently studying the NT in Greek using an interlinear Greek-English NE 3rd Edition Printed by Baker Books, Sr. Editor Jay P. Green, Sr. ISBN#0-8010-2138-3

I would like to give you some excerpts from the preface:

"The marketplace [has many] new books which are being represented as "versions" of the Bible. Each one claims to be the very word of God, yet there are literaly thousands of differences between them - ... In one way the new "versions" agree: they all leave out dozens of references to the deity of Jesus Christ, and they add words which tend to question His vigin birth, His substitutionary, fully satisying atonement. This is due to their decision to depend on an Alexandrian text-base, instead of that body of God's words which has been universally received and believed in for ninteen centuries, known to us as the Received Text."

"[These other versions mainly cite] two manuscripts, admittedly old, from the fourth century AD., but also admittedly carelessly executed. One, the Sinaiticus, was so poorly executed that ten different hand of 'textual critics' can be discerned as they tried to empose their views on this already corrupted manuscript. They twisted it lake a nose of wax to meet their purpose at the time. It is no wonder that is was discarded, finally found in a wastebasket fourteen centuries after it was executed. The other, the Vaticanus, manuscript lay on a shelf in the Vatican library at Rome until 1431, and was considered so corrupt that no one would use it. Erasmus, the noted Roman Catholic scholar, refused to consider it as a source when he formed the Received Text. This Vaticanus manuscript has errors so absurd that the books purporting to teach 'textual science' carfully avoid mentioning these gross errors in their favorite manuscript. They take these two corrupt, carelessly executed manuscripts, and add a handfull of later manuscripts from the Alexandrian text-base - all of them loose and disrespectful in their handling of the Scriptures, and from these they give you their new [versions]."

"Today there are more tha 5,000 manuscripts and lectionaries in Greek as witnesses to the New Testament text. And 90% or more of these witness to the Received Text readings."

"Partly due to the fact those ancient manuscripts containing the Received Text were worn out by use, while the Alexandrian text-base manuscripts were preserved by the dry conditions in Egypt, some have sought to discredit the Received Text, saying that it is not ancient. But now the manuscript portions from the second century are being unearthed, and lo and behold many of the readings of the Received Text which had bee tagged scronrfully as 'late readings' ... are now showing up in these earliest manuscripts. ... Yet strangely, in textual criticism classes, such discoveries (which support the Received Text) are swept under the rug, not being reported to the students."

"...What are these words which [these other versions] have so freely removed from their versions of the Scriptures?
a) They have made Joseph to be the begetter of Jesus, rather than following the Sriptures which say that God the Spirit begot the human body of the Lord Jesus (Luke 2:33)
b) They have made Jesus to be a begotten creature, rather than the third person of the eternal Godhead (John 1:18)
c) They have deleted "Son of God" from Mark 1:1
d) They have removed "Christ", "Jesus", "Jesus Christ",or Christ as God 25 times or more.
e)They admit that Christ suffered, but removed "for us" (1 Cor. 5:7)
f)They admit that Christ was sacrificied, but removed "for us" (1 Peter 4:1
g)They remove Luke's and Mark's witness of Christ's ascension.
[*NOTE* Though the Vaticanus and the Sinaiticus manuscripts omit the last 12 versus of Mark, they have that exact space for it empty (the only empty space in the entire manuscript) - as if the transcriber of each manuscript knew about those 12 verses, and decided on their own to omit them.]"

The transcribers of the texts (which are used to create the other versions other than the KJV) were actually athiest-type people who really did not believe that Jesus could be God, and decided to re-write the NT texts in what was more correct in their eyes.
It is no wonder that they were thrown away and unused (until now).

It is my opinion that satan's hand is on these works. His best ploy is not to deny God, simply alter his Word. Remember Eve in the garden of Eden? The begining of her downfall was when she incorrectly quoted God's Words.

I tend to stick to KJV or the Greek Received Text. However, I do not judge others who use other versions, I simply let them know my opinion, and I let them decide for themselves.

Remember the warning: do not add or take away . . .

Valid Name

08-19-2002, 11:32 PM

Greetings Tonyshaw,

Welcome to the Tzaddikim, you have many points about the versions.

I am curious however, I see rather many of the KJV 'advocates' for a better lack of terms...

What do you ascribe as the Word of G-d?

Many defintions are abound. I really know of none.

Sorry for the pounce of quick questions...

Peace,
Valid Name

tonyshaw

08-20-2002, 06:30 AM

To Valid Name,

That is the problem with history.

In one hand, hold the actual past as it actually happened. This, unfortunately, is only truely know by God (and I might guess other spiritual forces might know some of the past, but I would further guess that God alone knows ALL of the past in it's entirety).

In the otherr hand, hold the history books and knowledge of man we have today. This, unfortunately is riddled with error, omission, addition, and outright lies. It can even change - many regemes have rewriten history to favor and propagate their points of view.

It takes faith, then, to believe that G-d would ensure that His Word would get to us as He would want it to. In fact, since the pages were originally written by the hands of man, one has to FIRST believe that God inspired the original writtings in the first place. If G-d did affect the hands that wrote the original writtings, then it is not too much of a stretch to believe that G-d could affect the many other hands that copied the originals. It would seem easy to believe that His people, the Jews, have carefully preserved the Word of G'd (OT) to the present day. And there are many documentations demonstrating the solidity of the NT (KJV).

I am also quite sure that there are other versions out there that do not have "flaws" as mentioned - in fact, to a casual reader who allready believes these flaws would probably go un-noticed.

I am a bit of a "purist" who would have Zeroxed copies of the originals in my hands if that were possible. But since I can't have the originals, I try to get as close as possible to them, as I can best determine what that might be.

It is always good to question - G'd Himself encourages us not to just take anyone's word on anything - and I would like to stretch that point to include: anyone's word that a version is accurate to the originals (yes, that includes questioning KJV). To question everything is not a bad thing. Even if you question a truth, if done with the desire to reach truth, doing so might "gird" up your faith in that truth rather than weaken it.

The bottom line is this: Moses saw G'd, and heard His words. The disciples saw G'd, and heard His words. We haven't seen G'd, nor have we heard His words (directly). We only have copies of the writtings from the ones who had.

I believe it is faith that connects the gap. And if you believe in Jesus as Lord G'd, then I believe someday He will explain it all to you someday.

And, thanks for the question. I always enjoy good conversation and getting other points of view.

Matthew23

08-21-2002, 07:40 PM

Hello there fellas. I am an NIV reader myself. I would also like to have the original manuscripts. I think anyone that has a love for G-d's word would love to read all of the actual handwritings of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, Jude, and James (I think Paul wrote Hebrews:D ). I am able to understand the NIV better than the KJV.

Do not add or take away
I think John's actual warning was meant for the book of the Revelation.

So anyways, I guess it's settled... Yeshua is YHWH:D

p.s. less is more;)

Glori

08-26-2002, 06:22 AM

Hi all,

I am going to post a quick response just to let you know I am alive.

Isa.43.10-11 with John 1.1-3, 4.34, 5.17 & 17.4. The prophecy of Dan.7.13 was fulfilled in John 1.32-33. Any one that doesn't believe that Jesus Christ overcame death by God's spirit in him {2 Cor.5.19) as God's way of "reconcilling the world to himself" cannot overcome the "second death". In Adam all die, but in Christ shall all be made alive(1 Cor.15.22).

YaHudaH :)

Thummim

08-26-2002, 09:37 AM

...Glori, you need to put Isaiah in the context of its surrounding verses of text. Isa. 43: 10, 11's servant is Cyrus, named in the next chapter of Isaiah. As to the timing of these words, you need only jump a single paragraph to set them in time.

14 Thus saith YHWH, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships. Isa. 43: 14 {this coincides with Cyrus's reign}

...The text isn't talking about "Jesus". It doesn't even mention the time of the Romans.

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4 Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.

5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;

6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth; Isa. 43: 4 - 6

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...These verses of Isa. 43 speak of the gathering of the nations of Israel. Israel is a redeemed people in this time. Their sins are forgiven them. {Isa. 43: 25; Isa. 44: 22, 23} They gather to return to the land of Israel, which they shall occupy for the next 500+ years.

...The kingdom mentioned in Danial 7: 13, is to be posessed by the "JEWish" people, and not "christians". The saints here, are not christians at all. This is a kingdom that exists upon the earth. There is only one holy people. They are mentioned as the "saints" that are given possession of the kingdom {Dan. 8: 24} of the man who understands intrigue {dark sentenses}, by which he gains his throne.

....Michael

Glori

08-26-2002, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by Thummim
...Glori, you need to put Isaiah in the context of its surrounding verses of text. Isa. 43: 10, 11's servant is Cyrus, named in the next chapter of Isaiah. As to the timing of these words, you need only jump a single paragraph to set them in time.

14 Thus saith YHWH, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships. Isa. 43: 14 {this coincides with Cyrus's reign}

...The text isn't talking about "Jesus". It doesn't even mention the time of the Romans.

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4 Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.

5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;

6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth; Isa. 43: 4 - 6

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...These verses of Isa. 43 speak of the gathering of the nations of Israel. Israel is a redeemed people in this time. Their sins are forgiven them. {Isa. 43: 25; Isa. 44: 22, 23} They gather to return to the land of Israel, which they shall occupy for the next 500+ years.

...The kingdom mentioned in Danial 7: 13, is to be posessed by the "JEWish" people, and not "christians". The saints here, are not christians at all. This is a kingdom that exists upon the earth. There is only one holy people. They are mentioned as the "saints" that are given possession of the kingdom {Dan. 8: 24} of the man who understands intrigue {dark sentenses}, by which he gains his throne.

....Michael

Actually I was referring to the fact that Isa.43.10-11 says "before me there was no god formed, and neither will there be after me. I, even I am the Lord, and beside me there is no Saviour". That is not talking about Cyrus. I understand the some cannot find the prophetic meaning of scripture because they only focus on the literal meaning, but in your understanding, who exactly is the "Angel of the Lord's presence" that Isa.63 9 refers to? And who is the "one like unto the Son of man" that Dan.7.13 says "comes to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him, and he is given dominion and glory and a kingdom ?

Glori

Thummim

08-27-2002, 09:04 AM

Glori writes;

who exactly is the "Angel of the Lord's presence" that Isa.63 9 refers to? And who is the "one like unto the Son of man" that Dan.7.13 says "comes to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him, and he is given dominion and glory and a kingdom ?

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...Do you think that "Jesus" is an angel? The angel of his presence was with YHWH when he took on the Egyptians. YHWH makes his own presence everytime he sends his angel to do his bidding. This angel bears the name of YHWH.

20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.

21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. Ex. 23: 20, 21

...This is the angel of YHWH's presence.

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Dan. 7: 13, 14

...This kingdom is on the earth. It at first belongs to an evil one. But this one who sits upon the throne of David is to inherit the kingdom.

...Let me pose a question here. A simular idea is used by the author, in Dan. 3: 25. But here we see that the term denotes a "son of GD". You no doubt believe that this also is refering to "Jesus". But the names of the three hebrew boys that are thrown into the ovens, denotes the messiah in the use of their names. Shadrah means "spreading growth", Meshach is "Meshiach" the messiah. And Abednego means "afflicted servant". Now if a son of GD comes to rescue these names of the messiah from the ovens, how can the messiah also be the son of GD? Does he rescue himself, or are we being told that the messiah was among his people, {that refuse to bow to the idol of flesh} when the christians of Europe used their ovens on the name of GD {YaHudaH}? Have the christians burned their own messiah? So the son of GD is not the messiah? The faith of Rome is wrong. The son of man denotes "born of a woman", like David is, and it is a term that is heavily used by Ezekiel. It does not mean messiah or {son of GD}, as all JEWish men are deemed to be.

....Michael

Glori

08-28-2002, 11:58 AM

Do you think that "Jesus" is an angel? The angel of his presence was with YHWH when he took on the Egyptians. YHWH makes his own presence everytime he sends his angel to do his bidding. This angel bears the name of YHWH.
20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.

21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. Ex. 23: 20, 21

...This is the angel of YHWH's presence.[END QUOTE]

You are correct that YHWAH was the power that the Angel of YHWH's presence conducted when delivering his children from Egypt. The same is true for the ultimate deliverence. Heb.2.9 says Jesus was made "a little lower than the angels" for the suffering of death". Overcoming death was the age old promise and the mission of the angel of G-d's presence, otherwise it would not have required that he first be born of a woman. So in the flesh Jesus was not an angel, but 2 Cor.5.19 says, YHWH was in Christ, reconcilling the world unto HIMSLEF.

Deut.18.18 with John 17.8 "I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren like unto thee, and I will put MY WORDS in his mouth, and he shall speak them to all that I command him", "for I have given them the WORDS WHICH THOU GAVEST ME and they have received them".

Deut.18.16 with Job 33.6-7 & Matt.11.28-30 "According to all that thou desired of the L-rd thy G-d in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying Let me not hear again the voice of the L-rd G-d, neither let me see this great fire any more that I die not"
"Behold I am according to thy wish in G-d's stead, I also am formed out of the clay; my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee", "come unto me all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon on you and learn of me, for my yoke is easy and my burden is light".

Deut.12.11, 14.23 with John 17.6 "Then there shall be a place which the L-rd your G-d shall choose to cause HIS NAME to dwell there; "thou shall eat before the L-rd the G-d in the place which he shall choose to place HIS NAME". "I have manifested THY NAME unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world".

QUOTE BY MICHAEL]13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Dan. 7: 13, 14

...This kingdom is on the earth. It at first belongs to an evil one. But this one who sits upon the throne of David is to inherit the kingdom.[END QUOTE]

First, Jesus was both Son of G-d and son of man, thus the statment "one LIke the son of man. You are correct about the kingdom first being evil, and the kingdom still belongs to the evil one, but as Rev.11.15 says, "the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our L-rd and his Christ". Remember that Hos 13.11 says "I gave them a king in my anger, and took him away in my wrath";

[QUOTE BY MICHAEL]...Let me pose a question here. A simular idea is used by the author, in Dan. 3: 25. But here we see that the term denotes a "son of G-D". You no doubt believe that this also is refering to "Jesus". But the names of the three hebrew boys that are thrown into the ovens, denotes the messiah in the use of their names. Shadrah means "spreading growth", Meshach is "Meshiach" the messiah. And Abednego means "afflicted servant". Now if a son of GD comes to rescue these names of the messiah from the ovens, how can the messiah also be the son of GD? Does he rescue himself, or are we being told that the messiah was among his people, {that refuse to bow to the idol of flesh} when the christians of Europe used their ovens on the name of GD {YaHudaH}? Have the christians burned their own messiah? So the son of GD is not the messiah? The faith of Rome is wrong. The son of man denotes "born of a woman", like David is, and it is a term that is heavily used by Ezekiel. It does not mean messiah or {son of GD}, as all JEWish men are deemed to be. ..Michael [/B]

The L-rd raised up Jesus by his own spirit to be the head of the body of believers(Hos.1.11, Mic.2.13, Eph.1.22, Col.1.18,1 Pet.2.7), in that, yes the Messiah saves himself. As far as the rest of your comment, as you pointed out - the kingdom is first possessed by evil ones, so there was a time of G-d leaving us to ourselves in order to find which ones were truly his(Isa.18.5-6, Deut.32.20), because those evil ones pretent not to be evil(Isa.14.13-14, 2 Cor.11.13-15). See Luke 22.53 with Amos 5.20 and 2 Thess.2.3-4-11-12; See also Isa.42.1 with John 9.39, Dan.7.26, Hos.10.4, John 12.48-31.

I do not have the best eyes, so I am hoping that I have not made mistakes that I have missed.

Glori

Thummim

08-29-2002, 09:37 AM

Glori writes;

You are correct that YHWAH was the power that the Angel of YHWH's presence conducted when delivering his children from Egypt. The same is true for the ultimate deliverence. Heb.2.9 says Jesus was made "a little lower than the angels" for the suffering of death". Overcoming death was the age old promise and the mission of the angel of G-d's presence, otherwise it would not have required that he first be born of a woman. So in the flesh Jesus was not an angel, but 2 Cor.5.19 says, YHWH was in Christ, reconcilling the world unto HIMSLEF.

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...First I want to say that sheol takes its toll from all people. We all still die. So "Jesus" didn't conquer death. This idea of yours, is an illusion. Death still awaits you and me. "Jesus" also was no angel of YHWH's. He didn't come as deliverer of the JEWish people, neither did they need him for shoring up their faith. "Jesus" is an idol fashened out of human flesh, that many of the worlds people worship. If "Jesus" had never been born, wouldn't the fate of all JEWs have been better? Why does the faith of christianity have to exist? Neither Hos. 1: 11 or Mi. 2: 13 have anything to do with "Jesus". The text of Micah should not be read without first reading Mi. 1: 1 which dates it. Neither should Hosea be read without first reading Hosea 1: 1. Context is very important in making an argument. In both cases Isaiah 44: 22 follows YHWH's decrees against Israel, and redeems Israel.

22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.

23 Sing, O ye heavens; for YHWH hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for YHWH hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel. Isa. 44: 22, 23

...{note the paragraph marker. This redemption belongs to the time of Cyrus. It follows well after the troubles that Jacob has with the Assyrians and the Babylonians. None of these texts have anything to do with "Jesus".

Hosea 1: 6, 7 sets the time of these words as directed to Judah and Israel between 712 BCE and 586 BCE. So squeezing Jesus out of the text doesn't work. Judah is spared from the Assyrians, but Samaria isn't This is the answer given to Ahaz in Isaiah's seventh chapter. Israel will no longer be a people, but Judah will be saved {until Babylon} Hos. 1: 9 reads like Isa. 65: 15. But in both cases, Israel again becomes GD's people.

Glori writes;

The L-rd raised up Jesus by his own spirit to be the head of the body of believers(Hos.1.11, Mic.2.13, Eph.1.22, Col.1.18,1 Pet.2.7), in that, yes the Messiah saves himself.

...I'm confused here. I don't know what you are talking about. The NT's authors are free to write anything that they want to in their texts. But they are not free to rewrite the tanakh. Trying to squeeze "Jesus" into the old testament texts is questionable at best. The NT's authors can freely quote text, but it becomes obvious how in err they are, when you look up these texts and read them in their proper context. For example, how would the following text be squeezed into the time of "Jesus"

1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.

2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of YHWH'S hand double for all her sins.

3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of YHWH, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

...Mathew 3: 3 borrows this text to build upon, but how would it fit a time of peace, which doesn't fit the time of John the babtist or "Jesus"?

3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Mat. 3: 3

...Comfort my people and tell them that their warfare is over? Have the Romans agreed to this? And can "Jesus" fit such a verse of text at all?

42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. {speaking to Jerusalem}

43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation. Lk. 19: 43, 44

...Is "Jesus" trying to annul the scripture that calls for peace? Isaiah's 40th chapter has nothing to do with the time of the Romans.

Glori writes;

"come unto me all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon on you and learn of me, for my yoke is easy and my burden is light".

...The burdon of "Jesus" is the Romans, who are about to distroy many of the JEWish people. Does "Jesus" bow to the slaughter? The NT is the book of the Roman faith. It isn't put together by the Roman church until after the conversion of Constantine. The words of the New Testament support a new faith and not an old one. Just circle the term, {the JEWs} in the book of the gospel of John, and you will see what I mean. It is between the new faith {christianity} and the old faith {the JEWs} that the battle rages. Both faiths interpret the tanakh differently. But the christian interpretation is so loose, that it is ludicrous. I am constantly having to correct christian assumptions of what the text of the tanakh is really about. Just try to connect "Jesus" to the tanakh, and I will show you what I am talking about. Very little will actually stick.

...Michael

Glori

08-29-2002, 11:18 AM

Michael,

[QUOTE BY MICHAEL]...First I want to say that sheol takes its toll from all people. We all still die. So "Jesus" didn't conquer death. This idea of yours, is an illusion. Death still awaits you and me.[END QUOTE]

First and foremost, you do not have the power of death in your hands, so it isn't your call to say I have to die. If the concept is such and allusion, why are the men of science trying so hard to acheive it? They are even as we speak on the brink of discovering all the cures God promised(Isa.33.24), and the long life that God promised(Deut.11.21). God is greater than man! If I have enough faith to take hold of it through belief in Jesus Christ, then the proof is in the pudding isn't it.

(QUOTE BY MICHAEL]"Jesus" also was no angel of YHWH's. He didn't come as deliverer of the JEWish people, [END QUOTE]

I asked you what the name of the Angel of the L-rd's presence was, and since you don't know, how can you be so sure it isn't Jesus?

[QUOTE BY MICHAEL]neither did they need him for shoring up their faith.[END QUOTE]

That is an interesting statment coming from a man who has not received the promises that were made to obedient Jews. If I, a Gentile, through faith in Jesus Christ, take hold of the promises made to you, while you as an obedient Jew do not, then I will be living proof that the Jews do indeed need Jesus to shore up their faith.

[QUOTE BY MICHAEL] "Jesus" is an idol fashened out of human flesh, that many of the worlds people worship.[END QUOTE]

There are false Jesus'(2 Cor.11.4) and yes fashioned by the Romans, but that is not the true Jesus that is revealed through the whole word of God.

[QUOTE BY MICHAEL] If "Jesus" had never been born, wouldn't the fate of all JEWs have been better? [END QUOTE]

Michael, in the past your G-d gave your people power over all the nations that came against you, you need to figure out why that has changed, and stop using the misled Christians as an excuse for what happend to you.

[QUOTE BY MICHAEL]Why does the faith of christianity have to exist? [END QUOTE]

You ask as though it is just one faith, but it is many. See Luke 11.17-18 for the reason

[QUOTE BY MICHAEL]Neither Hos. 1: 11 or Mi. 2: 13 have anything to do with "Jesus".[END QUOTE]

I stated that Jesus is the head of the body of believers, Hos.1.10 refers to Gentiles becoming G-d's people, and verse 11 refers to the children of Judah. Jesus was born in the tribe of Judah, and is our adoptive Father; Hos.1.11 goes on to say we will unite with the children of Israel and appoint ONE HEAD'. Micah 2.13 says "their King shall pass before them, and the Lord on the head of them" . I was illustrating the prophecy about "the head" of the body of believers.

[QUOTE BY MICHAEL]The text of Micah should not be read without first reading Mi. 1: 1 which dates it. Neither should Hosea be read without first reading Hosea 1: 1. Context is very important in making an argument. In both cases Isaiah 44: 22 follows YHWH's decrees against Israel, and redeems Israel. [END QUOTE]

What you need to realize is that your G-d, the Author of scripture, is not governed by time, and that when he spoke via the spirit through chosen men, at what ever date in history that was, he was preparing the "book of life"(Ps.139.16) that he would later give the supply of the spirit for the understanding (Isa.29.11-12-18, 59.21). In the "Song of Moses" God says "Give ear O ye heavens, and I will speak, and hear O earth the words of my mouth. My doctrine shall drop as rain, my speech shall distill as dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, as showers upon the grass".

How will doctrine drop as rain? Isa.55.10-11 says God's word is like the rain and snow that falls to earth to water it, and make it grow, and so it is with God's word, it will not return to him void, but will accomplish all that he sent it to". Hos.6.1, God has promised to heal you, and you are not healed, so evidently the second and third day in verse 2 and 3 are not physical days. Hos. 6.3 goes on to say that "if we follow on to know the Lord, he will come to us as the rain". Now here you have both the doctrine of God and the Lord coming to us as the rain, and with that I will point out that John 1.1 says Jesus is "the word that was, and was with God". Where Hos 6.3 mentioned an early and latter rain, that would be a two part "doctrine", old and new testament.

[QUOTE BY MICHAEL]...
.For example, how would the following text be squeezed into the time of "Jesus"

1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.[END QUOTE]

John 14.26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your rememberance, whatsoever I have said unto you". John 7.38-39(Isa.66.12) "He who believes in me as the scripture sayeth, out of his belly will flow rivers of living water{but this spake he of the Spirit which they that believe on him should receive, for the Holy Ghost had not yet been given, because that Jesus had not yet been glorified".

[QUOTE BY MICHAEL]...Is "Jesus" trying to annul the scripture that calls for peace? Isaiah's 40th chapter has nothing to do with the time of the Romans. [END QUOTE]

In Mark8.15 Jesus warned to "beward of the leaven of Herod" and well as of the Pharasees, and John 14.27 "My peace I leave with you. my peace I give unto you; NOT as the world giveth". Did you apply Jer.8.15 to the expectation for a time of worldly peace?

I think that is enough for now, any way, duty calls.:)

Glori

Thummim

08-29-2002, 08:32 PM

Glori writes;

First and foremost, you do not have the power of death in your hands, so it isn't your call to say I have to die.

...I would be pleased if you could cheat the grave. As you imply, many have desired it, but their funerals persist in occuring.

Glori writes:

I asked you what the name of the Angel of the L-rd's presence was, and since you don't know, how can you be so sure it isn't Jesus?

...I didn't realize that you had asked me this question. I can answer it for you. His name is YaHudaH, the letters that YHWH's name is taken from. He literally bears the name of the tribe of David. Thats where the authority of the throne comes from.

20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.

21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. Ex. 23: 21, 22

24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted. Ps. 89: 24

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, {YaHudaH} and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of YHWH of hosts will perform this. Isa. 9: 6, 7

Glori writes

There are false Jesus'(2 Cor.11.4) and yes fashioned by the Romans, but that is not the true Jesus that is revealed through the whole word of God.

...GD is not a man! If a man is called god, he is an idol of flesh. Idols can be made out of anything.

I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

Glori writes;

Hos.1.10 refers to Gentiles becoming G-d's people

...No it doesn't, it speaks of Israel not being GD's people {vs. 6} {lo-ammi - not my people} again becoming the people of YHWH.

6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name {Lo-ruhamah - not excepted}: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.

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10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hos. 1: 10 KJV

The number of the people of Israel shall be like that of the sands of the sea, which cannot be measured or counted; and instead of being told, "you are not my people," they shall be called children of the living GD. JPS translation

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Glori writes;

What you need to realize is that your G-d, the Author of scripture, is not governed by time

...But men are governed by time. The time pertaining to the text is given as follows;

1 The word of YHWH that came unto Hosea, the son of Beeri, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and in the days of Jeroboam the son of Joash, king of Israel.

...The author wants to keep you from being confused. His texts pertain to the dates given unless he says otherwise.

1 The word of YHWH that came to Micah the Morasthite in the days of Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, which he saw concerning Samaria and Jerusalem.

...These little headers are usually given prior to their following texts. You can see that Hosea and Micah cover the same time periods.

Glori writes;

Hos.6.1, God has promised to heal you, and you are not healed, so evidently the second and third day in verse 2 and 3 are not physical days. Hos. 6.3 goes on to say that "if we follow on to know the Lord, he will come to us as the rain". Now here you have both the doctrine of God and the Lord coming to us as the rain, and with that I will point out that John 1.1 says Jesus is "the word that was, and was with God". Where Hos 6.3 mentioned an early and latter rain, that would be a two part "doctrine", old and new testament.

4 O Ephraim, what shall I do unto thee? O Judah, what shall I do unto thee? for your goodness is as a morning cloud, and as the early dew {it goeth away}. = without rain Hos. 6: 4

...Why are you christians so afraid to read a whole paragraph or chapter at one time? The people that the text is addressed to is named. Much is being said, but you only want to read a single verse of text.

Glori writes;

1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.[END QUOTE]

...That isn't the end of my quote. What does the end of warfare mean to you? And what does "her iniquity is pardoned" mean?

1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.

2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of YHWH'S hand double for all her sins.

3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of YHWH, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

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3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Mat. 3: 3 ???

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...Isaiah said which words are to be spoken. How do those words compare to what "Jesus" said? Does "Jesus" comply and comfort Jerusalem?

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41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, {of Jerusalem} and wept over it,

42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation. Lk. 19: 41 - 43

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...It seems that "Jesus" is not compliant to his Eloheems will. Does he even know what it is to be obedient? A little more research, and you will find that "Jesus" is a questionable entity.

Glori writes;

In Mark8.15 Jesus warned to "beward of the leaven of Herod" and well as of the Pharasees, and John 14.27 "My peace I leave with you. my peace I give unto you; NOT as the world giveth". Did you apply Jer.8.15 to the expectation for a time of worldly peace?

...The absence of warfare is peace. This is what follows the demise of Babylon. Jeremiah writes about Jerusalem being taken captive by Babylon and the surrounding land being left desolate. He even explains why in the 24th chapter. Please read it and stop trying to accuse a righteous people of their past sins. These sins were forgiven them long before "Jesus" even exists. Like so many christians, you ask that YaHudah {the JEWs} serve their sentence again and again. But these transgressions were forgiven all JEWs long ago.

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22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.

23 Sing, O ye heavens; for YHWH hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for YHWH hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel. Isa. 44: 22, 23

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...If you paid attention to the dating, you might learn these things. This text is in the same paragraph that names Cyrus. {Isa. 44: 28} Cyrus is also named in the same paragraph of text that gives Israel an everlasting salvation, unto the end of the world. {read Isa. 45: 17 from verse one of the same paragraph}

....Michael

Glori

08-30-2002, 05:55 AM

Michael,

The fact that you are set in what you believe - for the time (Rom.11.15), I am not going to answer your post point for point. I am just going to respond with;

If "God is not man" stood for all time, how is it that the Messiah is the one in Dan.7.13 that says "one LIKE the son of man"? If he is like a man, how will he dawn that likeness?

What will be the purpose of that likeness?

How long will he mantain that likeness?

If he is "like the son of man", how will you tell him from an imposter?

For G-d's timing, I notice that Genesis 1.14-19 shows our time did not begin until G-d's fourth day. If you apply that understanding to scripture, you will understand why all that is promised through Messiah could not be accomplished in a day of our time {Isa.66.8).

As far as your claim that it is a Christian characteristic to "divide the word of truth"(2 Tim.2.15), so far all Christians I have encountered share YOUR complaint... They cannot move beyond the face value of each passage to the message that is "hid from the wise, but revealed to the hearts of faith"(Isa.35.5).

One last thing, I do not accuse a righteous people of anything as you suggest. I am pointing out that all the promises that G-d made to his children, that being the spirit of strength and life (Ps.104.30, Ez.36.26, 37.14) was given in the form of Words from G-d (Deut.18.18) brought by Jesus (Jn.17.8, 6.63). The Spirit of strength(Matt.26.41, Isa.59.21) to walk in the statutes that G-d gave that always reaped the power to reign supreme, and thereby be returned to the previous life (Ez.36.11-14).

With that, why DOESN'T Israel have the power of God with them today like in the days of yore? If Jesus is a god invented by the Romans, why should that interfere with the true power? I can't follow that.

Always a pleasure

Glori

Thummim

08-30-2002, 09:43 AM

Glori writes;

If "God is not man" stood for all time, how is it that the Messiah is the one in Dan.7.13 that says "one LIKE the son of man"? If he is like a man, how will he dawn that likeness?

...The point is that the messiah is not GD. The one is not the other. One approaches the other. They are in two separate places. GD is not man or Messiah. Who would anoint him? Who would have the authority to anoint GD? Is there one who is higher than YHWH?

One like a human being
Came with the clouds of heaven;
He reached the ancient of Days
And was presented to him. {by whom in this dream?}
Dominion, glory, and Kingship were given to him;
All peoples and nations of every language must serve him;
His dominion is an everlasting dominion that shall not pass away.
and his kingship shall not be distroyed. Dan. 7: 13, 14 JPS

...This being the case, the dominion is still the property of an evil man. {in the dream} The evil one must have it before it can be inherited by the righteous man. If "Jesus" is that evil man, than a righteous man will supplant him as Ismael, Esau, Reuben, Manasseh and Saul were supplanted. What follows "Jesus" but an assault against the name of YHWH?

Glori writes;

For G-d's timing, I notice that Genesis 1.14-19 shows our time did not begin until G-d's fourth day. If you apply that understanding to scripture, you will understand why all that is promised through Messiah could not be accomplished in a day of our time {Isa.66.8).

Our own time only begins when we do. That would be the sixth day. Until that day, we cannot count a single day. What is accomplished occurs in the lifetimes of the people of Israel. It is not about the messiah. It is about Israel.

Glori writes;

With that, why DOESN'T Israel have the power of God with them today like in the days of yore? If Jesus is a god invented by the Romans, why should that interfere with the true power? I can't follow that.

...The strength of YHWH is found in his name. This name is what is being waited upon. When we learn the name, YHWH will be armed. Then justice can come. YHWH will be with us.

6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I. Isa. 52: 6 KJV

Assuredy, My people shall learn My name,
Assuredly [they shall learn] on that day
That I, the One who promised,
Am now at hand. Isa. 52: 6 JPS

65 And the Tirshatha said unto them, that they should not eat of the most holy things, till there stood up a priest with Urim and Thummim. Ezra 2: 63, Neh. 7: 65

...Thummim is the plural of Tome which means "to complete". It "completes" YHWH's name. A letter is withheld from the sacred name. When the knowledge of Hashem is lost, so is the right arm of YHWH to protect his people.

1 YHWH hear thee in the day of trouble; the name of the God of Jacob defend thee;

2 Send thee help from the sanctuary, and strengthen thee out of Zion; Ps. 20: 1, 2

When YaHudaH left Babylon, some of the knowledge that they had once possessed no longer accompanied them. Their temple was destroyed and very many of their priests were killed. Building a house for the name of GD, when it is no longer understood, is not going to yeild the presence of GD's name. {the Shekina} These dark clouds are the name of his people that gather around him. It is the name of YaHudaH {praise YaH}. His people inhabit his "Praises". Calling up YHWH's glory {his name} requires that "the name" is learned all over again. This is ancient knowledge which doesn't work with the name of "Jesus".

20 If we have forgotten the name of our God, or stretched out our hands to a strange god;

21 Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart. Ps. 44: 20, 21

....Michael

Glori

08-30-2002, 01:31 PM

Michael.

How do you purpose to learn God's name?

Thummim

08-30-2002, 03:18 PM

Glori writes;

How do you purpose to learn God's name?

...Do you mean how do I propose to learn the name of YHWH? I already know it. I've little time now with the sabboth coming up, to teach you Hashem. But I can set a few verses in order for you to think about.

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5 But unto the place which YHWH your God shall choose out of all your tribes to put his name there, even unto his habitation shall ye seek, and thither thou shalt come: Deut 12: 5

...Does this verse of text represent a choice on YHWH's part to choose a tribe in which to place his name? If so, we can look for a match. Let us go with the tribe of David. This is the tribe of the throne of Israel.

8 Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee.

9 Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?

10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:

12 His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk. Gen. 49: 8 - 12

Now of praise we read;

3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel. Ps. 22: 22

22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee. Ps. 22: 22

35 And she conceived again, and bare a son: and she said, Now will I praise YHWH: therefore she called his name Judah; and left bearing.

10 According to thy name, O God, so is thy praise unto the ends of the earth: thy right hand is full of righteousness.

...Where do the letters YHWH come from? The name of Davids tribe is YaHudaH. Four of the five letters of GD's name come from the name of YaHudaH {Yahudah}. They are even in the same order. Talk about inhabiting praises.

...Now we also have a more direct confession of the name of Hashem.

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6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of YHWH of hosts will perform this. Isa. 9: 6, 7

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...Does the name of GD set upon the throne of David.

24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted. Ps. 89: 24

27 And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Nu. 6: 27

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O YHWH our Adonai, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. Ps. 8: 1

...What evidence is there of this? Are the heavens somehow corrupt? Can you plant the earth before you create the heavens? The author did. When GD shows his glory to Moses, he "proclaims his name". {see Ex. 34: 5, 6} When the glory of YHWH rises upon his peoples in Isaiah 60: 1, 2, It is his name that is seen upon them. Though it is the sun that brings forth fruit, {Deut 33: 14} In the creation account the fruit of the earth is brought forth without the sun and without seasons. Does the author of Genesis, know that this will not work? What the author is doing, is placing the glory of YHWH's name a little higher than the glory of the heavens.

...The name of YHWH is a terrible weapon to take into battle with oneself.

10 And all people of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of YHWH; and they shall be afraid of thee. Deut. 28: 10

...When one knows the name of Hashem, he reads a very different book than all others do. Praise GD!

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11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:

12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

...Praise YHWH with understanding! {ps. 47: 7}

9 I will praise thee for ever, because thou hast done it: and I will wait on thy name; for it is good before thy saints.

Halleluyah, = Praise GD!

....Michael

Glori

09-01-2002, 06:37 AM

Michael,

I also observe Sabbath :) Will you tell me somthing about the name "Joshuah"?

Thummim

09-01-2002, 08:49 AM

...Joshua, the name first occurs in Exodus chapter 17: 9 and is the one who made battle with Amalek, and prevailed in battle when Moses held up his hands, as they clutched the rod of GD. There is no prehistory of this name prior to its use here. Amalek is to be an enemy having a death sentence attached to all his seed.

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8 Then came Amalek, and fought with Israel in Rephidim.

9 And Moses said unto Joshua, Choose us out men, and go out, fight with Amalek: tomorrow I will stand on the top of the hill with the rod of God in mine hand.

10 So Joshua did as Moses had said to him, and fought with Amalek: and Moses, Aaron, and Hur went up to the top of the hill.

11 And it came to pass, when Moses held up his hand, that Israel prevailed: and when he let down his hand, Amalek prevailed.

12 But Moses' hands were heavy; and they took a stone, and put it under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side; and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun.

13 And Joshua discomfited Amalek and his people with the edge of the sword.

14 And YHWH said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

15 And Moses built an altar, and called the name of it Jehovah-nissi:

16 For he said, Because YHWH hath sworn that YHWH will have war with Amalek from generation to generation. Ex. 17: 8 - 16

...The name of Joshua {Yehowshua} means, {YHWH Saved}. Chapter seventeen of Exodus is where the children of Israel chided Moses about whether YHWH brought them out into the desert to die of thirst. The author then uses "Joshua" for the first time. The name of Joshua, must also be an answer to Israel. YHWH will save their lives.

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Then YHWH said to Moses, "Inscribe in this document as a reminder, and read it aloud to Joshua: I will utterly blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven!" And Moses built an altar and named it Adonai-nissi. {YHWH is my banner} He said, "it means, 'hand upon the throne of YHWH!' YHWH will be at war with Amalek throughout the ages." Ex. 17: 14 - 16, JPS {JEWish publication society} "the tanakh"

...Perhaps the context of the first use of the name will enlighten you as to the relevance of the name of Joshua.

....Shabbat Shalom, Michael

Glori

09-01-2002, 12:31 PM

Michael,

[QUOTE]Then YHWH said to Moses, "Inscribe in this document as a reminder, and read it aloud to Joshua: I will utterly blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven!" And Moses built an altar and named it Adonai-nissi. {YHWH is my banner} He said, "it means, 'hand upon the throne of YHWH!' YHWH will be at war with Amalek throughout the ages." Ex. 17: 14 - 16, JPS {JEWish publication society} "the tanakh"[END QUOTE]

Thank you for that input, but I am asking what the name Joshua actually means. Forinstance, "Caleb the son of Jephunneh" as I understand it, means "A dog for whom the way is prepared". Is that right.

....Shabbat Shalom

Thummim

09-01-2002, 07:25 PM

...Didn't I answer???

Joshua means, YHWH Saved. {after Ex., vs. 16} You must have missed it.

Yephunneh means he will be prepared.

Caleb means to yelp, hence a dog or by euphemism, a male prostitute. - Strongs, 3311, 3312.

....Michael

Glori

09-03-2002, 06:57 AM

Michael,

I am not writting this post for you to answer, but rather consider. We can exchange more later.

I want to tell you that I perceive that you are a man of sincerity and integrity, with real and true love for YHWH, and a solid knowledge of scripture. For that reason I wish to make my position known to you.

First and foremost, I share your deep adoration and praise of the one true G-d YHWH, and want with all my heart and soul to honor HIM in my life in a manner acceptable to HIM. I have been, and am now, willing and prepared to seperate from anything and everything that seperates me from the truth.

My story begins as such; I was born into a Christian family, so believing in Jesus is part of my roots. I was an unwanted child and therefore an unhappy child. I was told that Jesus loved me so much that he died for me, and that was all I had to cling to. If only in that way, he did save me from utter despair. Since that is not an easy thing to let go of, I carried my belief in him with me through growing up.

At a certain point in my life, as I had been led to believe that "with G-d all things are possible - through faith in the name of Jesus", I prayed for help in a very difficult situation, and did not get it; I was devistated. I was between wondering why he would not help me when I had full faith that he would, and wondering if he really even existed.

It was then a case of "need to know", and I was drawn to see what the Bible had to say for my self. I read it through once, and did not comprehend it, but I did know it did not seem to support my pre conceptions. I realized that there was significance in "sevens", and with that I essayed to read it six more times in rapid succession, and that developed my memory to the point that I knew collectively what it said.

With that, I went on to study the true history of the faith along with a continued study of scripture, and learned and knew that the Jesus of the Christian faith was not the Messiah, but rather an invention of the opposers of the true faith that 2 Cor.11.4-13-15 warned of, and that was via the New Testament itself being completely defaced by hidden facts of history(Luke 8.17) and misinterpretations(2 Pet.1.20).

Truthfully, the enemies of the faith knew that the promises were to Israel, and that YHWH had closed there eyes, supposededly for the purpose of bringing the Gentiles into the faith (Rom.11.25) so a doctrine was cleverly devised in effort to deceive the latter day inheritors (Ez.22.16, Heb.9.28). 2 Thess.2.11-12 agrees with Ps.57.6 & Isa.19.14 that YHWH turned the tables on them and "sent a strong delusion, that all those who love not the truth might be damned". That was for the express reason of exposing those very enemies in the due course of time, because they were and are hidden among the true children in all races(Isa.14.13-14).

Of course there is no way the Jews can accept a Jesus that violated everything YHWH said, or that claimed to be equal to him when he said clearly that HE had no equal. I will say that I came to realize that the Yeshua of the New Testament did not claim to be all of, or other than YHWH, but rather he claimed to be "the finger of YHWH" (Luke 11.20) that "finished" his word(Zech.4.9&6/ Jn.17.4-8). In truth neither Yeshua or his Apostles violated or condoned the violation of the Tenach, they all kept it to the hilt. That truth is found in researching the calendar of christians, because it was via the adoption of the Roman calendar after the Apostles were dead that caused the Christian faith to split from Judaism.

I came to believe that as scripture says, Yeshua brought the promised spirit via words from YHWH (Isa.59.21, Jn.6.63) that once written (Ps.40.7, 68.11) then engrafted/eaten(Jn.6.51, Jas.1.21), would supply the quickening spirit spoken of in Psalms 104.30, 119.37-38-40-88-95-107-154, 71.20 and 80.18. Bringing in the words from YHWH, and the giving of the spirit, was the finishing of the work of creation.

I believe that we are now in the time that Deut.32.20 speaks of, that YHWH is hiding his face to watch our latter end, as Deut.32.5 speaks of those "whose spot is not the spot of his children; they are those that have corrupted themselves and become a crooked and perverse generation". I believe that is in reference to the Jude 12 "spots on our feasts of charity", and that as Ps.37.10 foretells, a time is coming when "the wicked shall not be, neither their place will be found". JEr.17.6 "they will not see when good comes", when as Ez.36.11-14 says "YHWH will resrote us to our former estate, and better than, and the land will no more be called a destroyer of man". OH happy day!!!

I must tell you that Christians are far more opposed to what I believe than Jews, and that speaks volumes...

With that, I am now ready to continue considering the name of YHWH. I will go back to your previous posts, and take more time looking into the scriptures you have pointed out.

Praise YHWH, the G-d of Jacob, the G-d of glory

Glori

Thummim

09-03-2002, 08:37 AM

...Glori, I wish you lots of healing. The thought that I want to leave with you, is that YHWH did pardon his peoples sins and cast them into the depths of the seas.

...X-tianity does not want you to know what the following verses of text say. For they heap up guilt upon the new faith of "christianity". The verses of text below speak of a righteous people, made so by their Eloheems will. {Isa. 43: 25} "for his namesake"

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21 Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: I have formed thee; thou art my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me.

22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.

23 Sing, O ye heavens; for YHWH hath done it: {already} shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for YHWH hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.

24 Thus saith YHWH, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am YHWH that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;

26 That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:

27 That saith to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers:

28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.

--> {keep an eye on paragraph markers not shown in this posted text - "use your bible"}

Chapter 45

1 Thus saith YHWH to his anointed {messiah}, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates {of Babylon}; and the gates shall not be shut;

2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:

3 And I will give thee {Cyrus} the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, YHWH, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.

4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

5 I am YHWH, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am YHWH, and there is none else.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I YHWH do all these things.

8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness {and salvation} spring up together; I YHWH have created it.

9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

10 Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

11 Thus saith YHWH, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith YHWH of hosts.

14 Thus saith YHWH, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God.

15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.

16 They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.

17 But Israel shall be saved in YHWH with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

--> {Note that the salvation above is everlasting and reaches unto the end of the world, and it begins in the same paragraph as that in which Cyrus is named}

18 For thus saith YHWH that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am YHWH; and there is none else.

19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I YHWH speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.

21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I YHWH? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. {swear what?}

24--> Surely, shall one say, in YHWH have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

25 In YHWH shall all the seed of Israel be "justified" {tzadek --> righteous}, and shall glory.

...The above gives righteousness to YHWH's people. But christianity is not allowed to believe in JEWish righteousness. In the time of Cyrus, we find a righteous people which never lose that righteousness. What does that make of "Jesus?" Isa. 54: 9 gives this righteous people an Eloheem that will never again be angry with them. The first three verses of Isa. 54 pin that salvation to the time of reinheriting the desolate lands of Israel, following the decree of Cyrus. Believe that the name of {***YHWH ---> "YaHudaH"} is a righteous name. "Jesus" should have built upon the rock of David. {YaHudaH *Ex. 28: 21*} The righteousness that YHWH makes for his people, is disallowed by the faith of Rome. The Roman church has made a new name {JESUS} to displace the name of YHWH which has been taken from the letters in the name of the tribe of David. The tanakh is as JEWish as the name of its GD would imply. The eternal salvation of Isa. 45: 17 is in the same paragraph as that in which the name of Cyrus is declared. {Isa. 45: 1}

....Michael

Glori

09-08-2002, 02:23 PM

Hello Michael :)

I am studying all that you provided me with. I was going to print it all to make it easier, but my printer ran out of ink, so I will have to make a trip to Staples.

Just a few questions for now; I had been told that Cyrus referred to a gentile type Messiah, can you enlighten me on that.

Next, how do you pronounce the name Joshua in the greek language.

Someone on this board said that Yahudah was the name of Gd's praise. Would that name be appropriate to Psalms 30.12?

Thank you, and happy New Year

Glori

Thummim

09-09-2002, 09:30 AM

Glori writes;

Just a few questions for now; I had been told that Cyrus referred to a gentile type Messiah, can you enlighten me on that.

...Cyrus is spoken of as YHWH's "anointed" messiah. It is he that will free the prisoners from the pit. I will list a few verses that pin Cyrus to the text of the tanakh.

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2 Who raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings? he gave them as the dust to his sword, and as driven stubble to his bow. Isa. 41: 2

25 I have raised up one from the north, and he shall come: from the rising of the sun shall he call upon my name: and he shall come upon princes as upon mortar, and as the potter treadeth clay. Isa. 41: 25

28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid. Isa. 44: 28

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1 Thus saith YHWH to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:

3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, YHWH, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.

4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

5 I am YHWH, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am YHWH, and there is none else. Isa. 45: 1 - 6

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. Isa. 46: 11

...All of Isaiah's forty-seventh chapter speaks of what happens to Babylon through Cyrus. Isaiah's fourty-ninth chapter must also be refering to Cyrus, if we parallel verse nine to Isa 44: 28.

5 And now, saith YHWH that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, {Babylonians vs Assyrian captivities} yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of YHWH, and my God shall be my strength.

6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the "Gentiles", {actually the "Nations" of Israel} that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. {where Israel is scattered}

7 Thus saith YHWH, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of YHWH that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

8 Thus saith YHWH, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places. Isa. 49: 5 - 9

...The prisoners which leave Babylon are compared to sheep. They need a shephard, who is named "Cyrus" their messiah in Isa. 44: 28. YHWH is the redeemer of Israel, and frees his people from their captivity through Cyrus. So is Cyrus the man that nations abhor? {Isa. 49: 7}

13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city {from Isa. 44: 28}, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith YHWH of hosts. Isa. 45: 13

...A messiah is a deliverer. Cyrus fits the mold, but "Jesus" precedes the slaughter of his people. In the faith of YaHudaH, both the priesthood and the throne are "anointed" to serve YHWH. Cyrus is "YHWH's" anointed king at this time. There is no other. I do believe that so many connections to Cyrus can be made in the text of the tanakh, that it would bewilder all christians to see the connections. It's like weaving a tapestry out of the texts of the tanakh. One simply stiches one verse of text, to another. Two verses to pin together are these below.

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10 Go through, go through the gates {of Babylon}; prepare ye the way of the people; cast up, cast up the highway; gather out the stones; lift up a standard for the people.

11 Behold, YHWH hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of YHWH: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken. Isa. 62: 10 - 12

1 Thus saith YHWH to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates {of Babylon}; and the gates shall not be shut;

2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight {and prepare the way}: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:

3 And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, YHWH, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.

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Glori, this is only a little imformation on how "Cyrus" connects to the text. It requires the paralleling of text to see. I'm not reliable with greek to tell you what Joshua means in greek.

Glori writes;

Someone on this board said that Yahudah was the name of Gd's praise. Would that name be appropriate to Psalms 30.12?

You turned my lament into dancing,
you undid my sackcloth and girded me with joy,
that [my] whole being might sing hymns to You endlessly;
O YHWH my Eloheem, I will praise you forever. Ps. 30: 12, JPS

...I would say yes. "Praise YaH" is buried throughout the tanakh in every possible fashion. "Praising YaH" is acknowledging his name. It is also acknowledging GD's people.

O YHWH our Adonai, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. {by corupting the fourth day of creation in putting it out of the proper order}

2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength {through their "praises"} because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger. Ps. 8: 1, 2

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2 But unto you that fear "my name" shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. {released from it}

3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet {the ordained strength of Hashem} in the day that I shall do this, saith YHWH of hosts. Mal. 4: 2, 3

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...Its all about connecting the verses of these texts together in the right order. Now you know that the sacred name is "Praise" to YaH. And his people inhabit his "praises". {see Ps. 22: 3}

9 And moreover, because the preacher was wise, he still taught the people knowledge; yea, he gave good heed, and sought out, and set in order many proverbs.

10 The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.

11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd. Eccl. 12: 9 - 11

Baruch Hashem! ....Michael

tonyshaw

09-09-2002, 06:38 PM

to thummim & gloria:

I do not wish to interrupt your thread here. I cannot even come close to the depth of study you are into.

But it seems logical and obvious that:
Either Jesus is God, or he isn't.

If the New Testament can be accepted at least on the level of a historical document about what people said and testified to witnessing, then you at least have someone at that time period named "Jesus" who went around telling everone he met that he was God, and that eventually this cost him his life.

So, either Jesus is God, or he isn't.

If Jesus IS God, what does this mean for
:: those who do not believe Jesus is God - do they miss out?
:: those who do believe Jesus is God - then they have it right?

If Jesus is NOT God, what does this mean for
:: those who do not believe Jesus is God - then what is right?
:: those who do believe Jesus is God - How are they hurt?

These are the (my) logical ends to the main question:
Either Jesus is God, or he isn't.

And a final thought is this:
"Just because I believe in something doesn't make it true. I do not have the power to make reality match my thoughts, only God can do that."

Before airplanes were made and flown, it was a common occurance in those days for people to try various means of flight by jumping off of cliffs in their contraptions and inventions. Some would even believed it was a matter of will, jumped off the cliff, and "willed" themselves to fly. The truth of gravity brought them to reality. They died at the bottom.

Consider those four (4) ending possibilities. For myself, I believe that Jesus is God, and I need no "logic" to convince me - I take it as truth simply on faith. I believe somewhere in the NT that it says that God gives us the measure of faith we need to believe.

I always have a wish for everyone on earth, no matter what you believe in (and of course I will first share with you the gospel of Jesus) that if you choose not to believe in Jesus, I wish for you much happiness and success in this life. Because, according to Jesus, if you do not approach God and heaven through him alone, you will not make it to heaven. Therefore, since this would be your only chance to experience happiness, I would wish you much happiness - though I feel saddend by the thought of anyone not being able to spend eternity with Almighty God.

Again, sorry for interrupting. Continue your debate . . . . .

Thummim

09-10-2002, 09:02 AM

tonyshaw writes;

Because, according to Jesus, if you do not approach God and heaven through him alone, you will not make it to heaven.

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...This statement is why I refute "Jesus" as messiah. It seems strange that a JEWish messiah would be more about cursing his people, than blessing them. So the JEWish people, whose name is YHWH {a partial name comes from a complete name as (*thummim - "it completes"*) implies} are cut of from heaven? Isn't that like banning the name of YHWH from heaven?

6 Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I. Isa. 52: 6

...{YHWH will come in his own name} The NT is not built upon the name of YHWH and nowhere in its pages is the sacred name revealed. {John only says that it is in his 17th chapter} But where is it? Sixty-five of the sixty-six books of the tanakh have included the sacred name. The book of Esther is the exception and this book is where a plot is hatched to distroy the name of YaHudaH. Why did the NT 's writers choose not to include the name of YHWH in its book? Did the early church know where this name comes from? {excluding it is a way of excluding the JEWish people, "YaHu' "W"daH", Yahudah or Judah}

4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Beth-el, and there he spake with us;

5 Even YHWH God of hosts; YHWH is his memorial. {how he is to be remembered from Ex. 3: 15} Hos. 12: 4, 5

...Isn't it strange that the NT has stricken the memorial of YHWH's name from its texts? Do you want to trust a book that calls a man its god?

9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

....Michael

Glori

09-11-2002, 07:43 AM

Tonyshaw,

You are by no means interupting, this is an open forum and your input is welcome.

I would briefly like to inform you of something that you do not know; That son of maiden Mary was not named Jesus, his name is "Yeshuah", which is Greek for "Joshua" {Jehovah is salvation}.

Your anylogy about flight is very interesting and well applied, but one difference is this; Those who tried to fly and couldn't, knew before they hit the ground that they failed. Those who believe a false doctrine die and never know they believed a lie. That encludes ALL who die. The Jesus of the Christian Bible says "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living"(Matt.22.32). The basis of the Christian faith is borrowed from Egyptian religion with all the gods rolled into one, on whom they have given the name "Jesus". That would be "another Jesus than the Apostles preached" (2 Cor.11.4). Even the picture that has depicted Jesus for most Christians is actually "Serapis, the Egyptian god of the lower world" that was first adopted by Greeks as "Osiris, the god of healing", then adopted by Christians as the Saviour of their souls after death...

It is no wonder that such astute men as Michael could not accept that Jesus as the Messiah, because he is right in his evaluation of Jesus as opposed to all that the O T foretold about the promised Messiah. If Christians want to prove their Jesus is the true Messiah to the Jews(Rom.11.15), they need to find out how to inherit the promise given to them in Rev.2.26-27. What Jew would resist that as evidence that he was the true Messiah? It is the continued belief that death is the prerequisite to heaven that keep all G-d's children in stalemate... Remember that 1 Cor.4.20 says "The kingdom of heaven is not in word but power". So far, the only power the Christian churches have is in words of arguement (Job 6.25), and what money will buy, and that is not at all the fulfilled promise (Isa.58.1).

Welcome to the board, I hope I wasn't to hard on you :)

Glori

Glori

09-11-2002, 08:20 AM

Michael,

I have been meditating about all that you have made known to me, and I feel great rapport with all that you say. None of the scriptures are unfamiliar to me, it is those very scriptures that gave me insight that the Christians were deceived about their Jesus. However, it did not relieve me of my belief that Yeshuah is the true Messiah. I see in Joshua that when the Ark was taken across the Jordan, it went 2000 measures before the rest of the people. That agrees with the true Messiah as the flesh Ark of G-d's strength inheriting the full promise of life 2000 measures before the massess could follow. That also agrees with Yeshua bringing the words from GD that were promised through Moses. Ps.40.7 with 68.11 fortell of Messiah coming "in the volum of - the published book". Deut.32.1-3 and Hosea 6.3 fortell of the L-rd and his doctrine coming to us as "the former and latter rain"(a two part book), and Isa.55.10-11 affirm that G-d's word is like the rain that waters the earth, to cause it to bring forth and bud", and assures that it cannot fail. The Bible as a two part book began to manifest in the 3rd century (Dan.12.12), but was not a publication until the printing press was invented, that with it not flourishing until the freedom of Religion gives place to about 2000 years. If indeed Yeshua brought the words from G-d, then "receiving them with meekness will save our souls"(Jas.1.21), as John 6.63 says those words are "the quickening spirit of life"(Ez.37.14, Ps.104.30).

I have been praying for your G-d to guide my words, I have full faith that your heart is very beautiful. I cannot vouch that my heart is beautiful, but I can vouch that I feel great beauty in my heart. I believe fully that if I inherit anything from your G-d, it will be because I have bonded with his people through love for HIM and them; I wish only to establish that bond. I do not feel that I should continue a debate with you concerning the Messiah, but rather I need to keep studying scripture, to either find that I am wrong, or to move into a better position to make the truth known. Please be sure that my heart searches only the truth, and I hold you in high regard.

Your friend,

Glori

Thummim

09-11-2002, 03:47 PM

Some commentary on the quoted verse below

7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, Ps. 40: 7

...Perhaps we are reading the same book now. But nowhere is "Jesus" being mentioned in any context that we can recognise. It is definately not the NT since it is written "past tense".

11 The Lord gave the word: great was the company of those that published it.

12 Kings of armies did flee apace: and she that tarried at home divided the spoil.

13 Though ye have lien among the pots, yet shall ye be as the wings of a dove covered with silver, and her feathers with yellow gold.

14 When the Almighty scattered kings in it, it was white as snow in Salmon.

15 The hill of God is as the hill of Bashan; an high hill as the hill of Bashan. Ps. 68: 11 - 15 KJV

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YHWH gives a command;
the women who bring the news are a great host:

"the kings and their armies are headlong in flight;
housewives are sharing the spoils;
even for you who lie among sheepfolds
there are wings of a dove sheathed in silver,
its pinions in fine gold." {perhaps the spoils of war}

When Shaddai scattered the kings,
it seemed like a snowstorm in Zalmon. Ps. 12 - 15, JPS

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{there is some difference in numbering verse between the KJV and the JPS - JEWish publication society}

--> These verses do not fortell of the messiahs coming to me. They recount something that happened in the past.

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1 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.

2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass: {to nourish them?}

3 Because I will publish the name of YHWH:

{not mentioned by the letters, "YHWH" in the NT, is it too easy to connect these letters to the name of "YaHudaH", the blood guilty JEWs {Mat. 27: 25} of the NT's writers?}

ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

4 He is the Rock, {"of David"? see Ex. 28: 21} his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

...There is nothing NT that I can see in these verses.

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1 Come, and let us return unto YHWH: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.

2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know YHWH: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.

4 O Ephraim, what shall I do unto thee? O Judah, what shall I do unto thee? for your goodness is as a morning cloud, and as the early dew it goeth away.

--> "leaving no rain", but YHWH will heal both Ephraim and Judah with the rains that come at the begining and end of the growing seasons. The talk is of healing which is directed to the time just prior to the distruction of Jerusalem, by Babylon. Ephraim does not exist in the time of "Jesus" What follows "Jesus" is the distruction of Jerusalem and no healing rain.

5 Therefore have I hewed them by the prophets; I have slain them by the words of my mouth: and thy judgments are as the light that goeth forth.

6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings. Hos. 6: 1 - 6

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10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

12 For ye shall go out {of Babylon} with joy, {see Isa. 52: 9, 11}and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. Isa. 55: 10 - 12

...This occurs 500 + years before "Jesus" who himself is followed, not by a blessing for Israel, but the curse of the Romans. These words have nothing to do with the book that the Romans put together after Constantine.

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18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

19 The meek also shall increase their joy in YHWH, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.

20 For the terrible one is brought to nought, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity {in YHWH's people, "vs. 22"} are cut off:

21 [B]That make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of nought.

22 Therefore thus saith YHWH, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax pale. Isa. 29: 18 - 22

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...Glori, you do have a good heart because you are willing to believe in the righteousness of YHWH's people. What other wood could be grafted into this tree and grow? How could you ever grow in the wood of YaHudaH, if you didn't believe in its righteousness?

....Michael

Glori

09-11-2002, 06:47 PM

Thank you Michael, I will consider what you have told me. I also will try to obtain a book of Jewish scriptures, perhaps that will help me in my study.

Glori

Glori

09-13-2002, 01:51 PM

Micahel,

I have acquired a Jewish Bible. The preface says it is free of Christian enfluence. I have begun to read it, and I am praying for an open mind as I read. If I am wrong, the sooner I realize the better.

I do want to ask you a few more questions before I continue. You pointed out that Cyrus will be G-d's anointed Messiah, and of course you gave sufficient scripture to prove that. I want to know if the Messiah will actually have the name Cyrus? Also, will he be a human that G-d endows with power to lead his people? And, when he is expected?

Thank you for your patients

Glori

Thummim

09-15-2002, 06:32 AM

...Glori, Cyrus existed 2500 years ago. He freed the JEWish people from captivity. Those freed from Babylon built the second temple. That is what the books of Ezra and Nehemiah are about. Cyrus gave the holy vessels that the king of Babylon had taken {II Chr. 36: 18 - 23} from the temple before he burned it, to those he freed, and asked that the temple be rebuilt. As to fortelling of another messiah to follow in the steps of Cyrus, some 500+, or 2500+ years later, that would be questionable. "Jesus" did not mirror Cyrus in any way in his time. Most of Isaiah tells of the JEWish re-inheriting of the land of Israel that was left desolate. But instead, a kind of desolation follows "Jesus", leaving the lands of Israel, mostly desolate again. The NT is not a blessing to the JEWish people. One of my chieftest arguments is that "Jesus" doesn't fit the mold that is cast of a messiah, by Isaiah. One can say that he "came" to his temple, but most of the text of the prophets {the text of the tanakh that just came into your posession} recount the blessing of the JEWish people for their future. Isaiah himself declares all Israel to be righteous in the time of Cyrus, some 500+ years before "Jesus" speaks to his peoples hurt. {Lk. 19: 43, 44}. But the messiah of Isaiah 53, is to be the peace of the JEWish people. {Isa. 53: 5, --> the people are healed} How does one fit Isa. 40: 1 - 3 into the context of the time of the New Testement? It is tried in the words of Mat. 3: 3, borrowing a line of text from Isa. 40: 3, but absolutely the "peace" declared is not conceeded. {cry to Jerusalem that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned}. But that is not what "Jesus" cries. Isa. 43: 25 + Isa. 44: 22 equals a righteous people that have paid their debt to their Eloheem. It {the redemption} has happened already and "Jesus" meets a righteous people. But does he tell them that they are righteous? Now Isa. 45: 17 decrees eternal salvation to the JEWish people in the time of Cyrus {same paragraph that Cyrus is named} and Isa. 54: 9 gives the JEWish people an Eloheem that will never be angry with his people again. This is declared to be as the covenant that Noah made with YHWH, who promised to never again destroy the world with a flood. So what has the NT done to this righteous people? Has it taken a righteous people who bear the name of YHWH and made them unrighteous to the point that the holocaust can happen? When christianity defiled the name of the JEWish people, it also defiled the name of YHWH that defends them. The loss of the knowledge of Urim and Thummim {the name of YHWH}, the incomplete name, {tome is the root of thummim and means to "make complete"} really refers to one of the twelve "lights", tribes of Israel, {"urim" means lights}, --> "YHWH, the name that is YaHudaH without its fourth letter," is the name of GD. This is the throne of Israel with the authority of GD's name upon the throne. {Ps. 89: 24} In Deut. 12: 5, YHWH says that he will "put" his name into one of the twelve tribes. The loss of this knowledge has left Israel like a dreaded soldier ready for battle, but without a weapon to fight with. Arm him, and he will destroy his enemies. Those who came out of Babylon, lost something very important. {Ez. 2: 63, Neh. 7: 65} The temple that "Jesus" came to was empty and without the presence of YHWH. There is no Shekina, and no dark clouds for the second temple. So is the second temple really built for the "name" of YHWH, as is the case with the first temple? The temple of "Jesus" is empty of the presence of YHWH. But can a man be GD? I don't think so. If there is a messiah yet to come, he will come in the name of YHWH and will wrap the JEWish people in this name, so YHWH can again be the strength of his people and their deliverer. It's not about the messiah, its about the "JEWish" people.

....Michael

Glori

09-15-2002, 08:52 AM

Michael,

my prayer is that your people will very soon find that lost letter of YHWY's name. What a blessing it will be to see healing restored and justice accomplished. Even if I were left out of all inheritence, I would still rejoice the fulfillment, because YHWH is the ture and great G-d, and this world and all that it consists of is his handi work.

I have to admitt that I misunderstood that you thought Isaiah's Cyrus was referring to a Messiah yet to come.
I spent Sabbath reading Isaiah, Ezra and Daniel in the Jewish scriptures, and I have put myself in the mindframe that the Messiah has not come as I read. I certainly do not deny what you say about the life of a man named Jesus not reflecting Cyrus.
When I was first drawn away from the Christian religion, one of my first questions was, where is our health if we truly forgive others as we were forgiven.

Micahel, do you still keep the feast of Tabernacles? and if you do, how is it done now? Would you comment on the fact that I keep it in my back yard?

With love for the Jews and their G-d

Glori

Thummim

09-15-2002, 09:34 AM

Glori, here is a web site to visit. Yes, sukkot is one of the chag {festivals} in the JEWish calendar. JEWs will be building their sukkot just about everywhere and inviting family.

http://www.jewfaq.org/holiday5.htm

....Michael

Malachiah

09-17-2002, 10:37 AM

Shalom in all blessing Michael.
I see all Israel as holy this day, I see in the faith of the seven sprinklings of the blood of the goat ransom on the holiest day of the year when the door is open to the holiest place. I see Michael in the midst of the congregation of the righteous and I write it. I write it under the logo that means "righteousness". (i think, correct me if i error).Bless be Michael at the far corner of the earth from Jerusalem. Holy remembrance be your portion. Appointed holy ground arise under your feet step by step into the holiness of Jerusalem. Blessed is Yahudah in holy return.
Zakar!
Malachiah James
Portland

Thummim

09-17-2002, 10:55 AM

...Malachiah, may you find yourself occuping the "praises" of Israel in the name of YHWH, with joy in your heart. The name of the GD of Israel defend thee, and all that you love.

....Michael

Malachiah

09-18-2002, 08:41 AM

Thank you for the measures of your blessing. Holy is he that dwells in the praises of Israel. Bless you in YHWH! Bless you in the portion of your name sanctified in Him. Great portion is the name of Michael...."Who is Like El".
Malachiah James

Glori

10-01-2002, 06:18 AM

Michael,

It has been a gratifying study since I acquired the book of Jewish scriptures. It has been especially interesting about G-d's name. That is where I would like to specualte at this time. I see many names for G-d; I AM, El, Elah, Elohim, Hashem, Adoni, El shaddai, Jehovah Jireh(will provide), Jehovah rapha(health), Jehovah nissi(our banner), Jehovah shalome(peace)Jehovah ra-ah(Shepherd), Jehovah tsidkenu(the Lord is our righteousness), Jehovah Shamma(the Lord is present) and the names I learned from you, YHWH and Yahudah.

It seems that the different names refer to the various aspects of G-d's power, is that correct? I seem to recall that you said a letter has been witheld from the sacred name, and it is necessary for the whole name to be realized in order for G-d's people to be armed, is that correct? You also said that the MIssiah's name would somehow envolve all of G-d's name. I cannot help but be curious as to how one name could take in all of YHWH'S name, can you enlighten me on that? Also, what is the ultimate salvation that will occur when G-d's people are armed? Christians believe it is "life after death"... adopted from Egyptian religion.

I see in Gen.18.1-3 that "the L-rd appeared to {Abraham} by the terebinths of Mamre as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day, and he lifted up his eyes and looked, and lo, THREE men stood over against him, and when he saw them he ran to meet them from the tent door and bowed down to the earth and said MY L-RD". How is it "the L-rd/my L-rd" indicating one, appears in the form of three men?

You had quoted 1 Sam.15.29, that G-d is not man that he should repent"; The Jewish scripture says "The {Glory of Israel} will not lie or repent; for He is not a man that he should repent", but Ex.15.3 says "The L-rd is a man of war, the L-rd is his name". Can you explain that seeming contridiction?

One more question, since you are such a beautiful and obedient Jew, can you tell me when the next Jubalee is, and what exactly does "year of release" mean to this age?

I do so appreciate your willingness to help me in my quest to understand this great YHWH, so that I too may honor his Holy Name and hopefull escape eternal seperation from his glory and power.

God bless the Jews that walk in truth!

Glori

Glori

10-17-2002, 06:55 AM

Micahel,

I had been waiting for you to answer my last post before asking more questions, but more questions burn in my mind;

First, What is the "W" in YHWH?

Next, in reading through all your posts on this thread, you said in one post that the name "I AM" was not given as YHWH"s name, but the Jewish scriptures say in Ex.3.14 "and G-d said to Moses -- thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you".

In another post you mentioned the Rock of David, and also said that the name "Hashem" makes David's throne everlasting. How do you fit that with Jeremiah 23.6 saying in connection with the ruler on the throne of David "--and this is His name whereby He shall be called, The L-rd is our righteousness".

I do hope to hear from you :)

Glori

Thummim

10-17-2002, 09:38 AM

...Glori writes;

I see in Gen.18.1-3 that "the L-rd appeared to {Abraham} by the terebinths of Mamre as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day, and he lifted up his eyes and looked, and lo, THREE men stood over against him, and when he saw them he ran to meet them from the tent door and bowed down to the earth and said MY L-RD". How is it "the L-rd/my L-rd" indicating one, appears in the form of three men?

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...My answer is simple. When an angel visits anyone in the name of YHWH, that is YHWH. He exists in all that carry his will. What does YHWH look like. What Abraham saw was a reflection of ourselves. And YHWH's angels come in his name. That is most likely why his name is secret. But it is only secret until YHWH chooses to reveal his name to all.

20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.

21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. Ex. 23: 20, 21

...and with his name comes his authority. YHWH can show up as three angels, as two angels {the next chapter} or as one angel {Who Jacob wrestled Gen. 32: 24 - 32} When YHWH stands up to deliver GD's people out of the hands of Egypt, it is by the hands of an angel.

2 And the angel of YHWH appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

...But whom did Moses talk to?

Glori writes;

First, What is the "W" in YHWH?

...The hebrew letters are yawd-he-vav-he. It is the vav that is represented by the letter W. In Hebrew, it makes both a v sound and a loud o or an "oo" {U} sound when used as a vowel. Because of the complexity of representing these different sounds, I choose to use the W. YaH {w --> "oo"} dah or Jah {o} vah, where the vav is used as two sepret sounds {o, v} the W works best for me. Using Hebrew avoids the confusion. While I have a Hebrew word processor, you would need one also, plus this site would also have to be set up to use Hebrew. Its just easier to use the W.

Glori writes;

In another post you mentioned the Rock of David, and also said that the name "Hashem" makes David's throne everlasting. How do you fit that with Jeremiah 23.6 saying in connection with the ruler on the throne of David "--and this is His name whereby He shall be called, The L-rd is our righteousness".

...I'm not sure what your question is here. But the name of YHWH is always righteous. This name from which the letters of the sacred name are drawn, is YaHudaH. This is the tribe mentioned in Deut. 12: 5, and confirmed in Ps. 78: 67 - 69. In Zech. 14: 20, 21, you will see that all of the residents of Jerusalem {YaHudaH} are righteous enough to use holy vessels. They {YaHudaH} are as Holy as priests. This is because there is only one name now. GD's people are called by his own name. Jeremiah says as much in Jer. 14: 9 and Jer. 15: 16. There is no need for a temple without this name. Hashem is the centerpiece of this faith. The rock of David bears the name of YHWH among the stones of Ex. 28: 21. Jeremiah sees righteousness as belonging to the name of YHWH, and that this name would eventually make all of Israel {in YaHudaH} a righteous people. Isaiah confirms this faith in Isa. 54: 17. YHWH says, "the righteousness of my people is of me {of Hashem}"

Glori writes;

I seem to recall that you said a letter has been witheld from the sacred name, and it is necessary for the whole name to be realized in order for G-d's people to be armed, is that correct?

...Because the name of YHWH is holy as the name of GD, and the people are not always righteous, a letter is withheld to keep the names separate. This way the sacred name can be tended by the priests. The name is put upon the people to bless them. {Nu. 6: 27} But the conclusion of these authors thoughts, is that the people will eventually meld into the holy name.

...I will have to cover more of your questions later. I've just run out of time.

...Michael

Thummim

10-17-2002, 11:35 AM

Glori writes;

Next, in reading through all your posts on this thread, you said in one post that the name "I AM" was not given as YHWH"s name, but the Jewish scriptures say in Ex.3.14 "and G-d said to Moses -- thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you".

...The question is in which line of text did YHWH answer the question that Moses asked of him. Where does YHWH give his name? Now we can confirm YHWH's answer by simply moving about in the texts of Exodus. The author has worked upon his answer and wants his readers to get it right.

3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them. Ex. 6: 3

...Here we are told that YHWH has a name that Abraham doesn't know. Abraham knows his Eloheem by the name of El Shaddai. We are told that he doesn't know the name of YHWH. Could this have something to do with Moses question about what the name of his Eloheem is? Moses likely knew his GD as El Shaddai as well. Is there any purpose in YHWH revealing his new name? What is YHWH doing and why does he need a new name? But he makes a promise that he would commit his name to a tribe in Deut. 12: 5. Given that the ten commandments are restated in the book of Deuteronomy, we can overlap these two books in our reasoning. Isn't it likely that the thought of attaching the name of YHWH to the JEWish people was upon the mind of the author? This then may be why Moses asked of an Eloheem who he likely already knew as El Shaddai, "what is your name?" It is not Moses curiosity that gives us the question, but more likely the author's desire to convey this information to his reader. Now let us further confirm that YHWH is the name given as our answer.

5 And YHWH descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of YHWH.

6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, YHWH, YHWH Elohenu, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Ex. 34: 5, 6

...This name is YHWH's glory. It is the answer given to Moses. So what is the {I Am he whom I am} phraise all about? Perhaps we misunderstand this translation. Perhaps what the auther wanted to say is I am the Eloheem that really exists. YHWH is my name forever to all generations of Israel's seed. This is how you are to remember my name always.

...Because this name is talked about elsewhere, we know what answer was given to Moses. We know, because the author wanted to connect his Eloheem to his people, through the name of his GD. The author is a man who thinks like we do. Try to attach yourself to an idol. Man and clay stone wood and metal can never become one. Only through the name of YHWH can one be attached to the JEWish Eloheem. Now this name represents all of Israel, who is gathered from among all nations to merge with their Eloheem in his one name. {see Zech. 14: 9}

Ex. 34: 5, 6

Show me your glory.

LORD, LORD GD

...I read YHWH's proclamation to Moses, of his glory {Hashem} to be as follows, first the name of the tribe of YaHudah, followed by the name that is now connected to the author's people, through the tribe of Judah, to YHWH {in all cases here, the fourth letter being removed} In other words, Judah {married to} YHWH who is your {El}oheem. {the second occurance being the name of YHWH. {LORD (YaHudaH) + LORD EL (YHWH)}. This is the signing of the kethubah {Marriage licence}.

Glori writes;

It seems that the different names refer to the various aspects of G-d's power, is that correct?

...Excusing {I am} as GD's name, the author names to what these terms apply. Yes YHWH is the banner that Isaiah speaks of in Isa. 11: 10. The root of Jesse is YaHudah. Likewise, the Presence of YHWH always attends his name, {no name, --> no Shekina!}. The Peace, Healing and the Righteousness of the peoples belongs to the name of YHWH, the name that christianity didn't build upon, likely because it would have given away just how JEWish the tanakh is. It is also the name of YHWH that Saves the JEWish people from the assault against their name, {as I read Ps. 124, 7, 8 to say}. So now it is the one name of YHWH. {one name merged in an ever righteous people (YHWH is their righteousness or they couldn't be ever righteous)} Of course YHWH gathers his people to himself. How can they be guilty for his own namesake? And yet that is why so many were slaughtered. They were JEWs! The JEWish people can only be guilty by name if the GD {YHWH} is guilty also.

...I hope that I may have resolved some of your questions. I am not the end all of answers. I only know the answers as I have learned them.

....Michael

Malachiah

10-17-2002, 05:33 PM

"...Yes, though of non JEWish parents"

This is how you responded when asked if you are Jewish. 7-15-2002. What does that mean and how is it possible?
Malachiah James

Thummim

10-18-2002, 08:44 AM

...Malachiah, I am a JEWish convert. I chose to be JEWish years ago. In the sixties, I was a christian. But after three years of this faith, I could no longer be at peace with it. The JEWish people are not genetically a people. JEWish flesh is as your own. Through conversion and intermarriage, the JEWish people have become as the people that surround them. When the German people decided that the JEWish people were different {as a matter of flesh} they were wrong. The JEWs were made to wear yellow stars because the German people couldn't tell who was JEWish by looking at them. They would have destroyed their own children if they would have been deemed JEWs. But then they did. When you see the line of JEWish children being led to safety on TV, because someone is shooting at them, that is the flesh of your own children being rushed away. The JEWish people are not a race of people. JEWs are as diverse a people, as Americans are. If you decide to become JEWish, your body will not hinder you. It is what one believes and your name {JEW}, that makes a person JEWish.

...You can decide to be JEWish. It isn't as easy as deciding to belong to any other faith, but with a little study and the help of a Rabbi, you can convert.

....Michael

Malachiah

10-18-2002, 10:27 AM

This changes the whole equation between you and I.

Now I understand why I wrote the Word declaring the only thing I knew for sure about you is that the Angel Michael was coming to me in the trial of Judah under the Logos..."Righteousness"and as Thummin. I had a conviction of something not Jewish in you. Something only slightly detected but something not absolutely consitant with other Jews I have written with and learned from. Those Jews are of the blood you say doesn't exist and they are the ones Hitler found. I have written face to face with these Jews which are from many varied backgrounds and found a certain thing in them that is solid and consistant in them all. I saw you come to that spot and take me there time and again, but this other thing that I only find in gentiles kept returning in you. In them the gentile item is not found. I am learning how to recognize it in Word and surely I can see it in the hearing of a persons mouth. You have been long time with the Jews it seems(a people that is what. if not a blood? And herein we are close to solving the problem of the present shedding of Jewish blood on earth.
If any of the Jews of the Holocaust could have said, "o I had my fingers crossed, I was just a convert. I was just playing religion. Really, I was baptised A Lutheran years ago. They would have done so to save themselves and their blood family! In fact many tried. It was not a religious persecution to Hitler! It was a matter of blood! It is always a matter of blood in the holy things of the living God. He has created all men of one blood and formed them into nations and separated His priest in order that they all might seek Him in their order and know Him in Holy covenant union!
Now you and I are two men from the gentiles joining ourselves to Israel! We were far off. We were without God, without hope, and in the world. But now we draw near into the common wealth of Holy Israel! We are as two women coming to the wedding. Each thinks she is the bride. You think you have already joined in the marriage, and I wash my garment and prepare. To me blood is everything, for all that is the Spirit is already mine. This is my heritage through the blood of the cross of Jesus Christ wherein my hand fits perfectly in the hand of the Jews!

Surely o gentile Michael, the trial in Judah is a marriage.

Malachiah James

Thummim

10-18-2002, 11:16 AM

...Malachiah, check with your {blood?} contacts again. They who are born of JEWish parents will tell you that the JEWish people are not a race of people, and that they represent the people of this world in genetics. JEWs come from all over this world and carry the genes of many nations within them. Those whom Hitler distroyed looked the part of the peoples that surrounded them. {Germans included} Why do you think that these people had to wear yellow stars? It isn't because it was obvious who was JEWish. One of the hardest things to teach a gentile, is that the JEWish people are not a JEWish race. It is christianity that represents the JEWish people as a race. The JEWish people married the daughters of many nations. {even pre-BCE} They also filled their ranks with many people who chose their faith over others. You need to learn of this mixing of genes. You need to sit down in a JEWish congregation and look about. Hitler was a christian who believed like you, that all JEWs were of one race, and he {unlike you} did not esteem that race. Posters were pasted in shop windows in nazi Germany, to show how one identifies a JEW. But most JEWs didn't look anything like the posters. They were gathered by name, and not by looks, to be distroyed in Hitlers ovens. It wasn't a JEWish race that was gathered out of the nations of Europe, for distruction. {even though that is what Hitler believed} It was a very special name that was gathered. {JEWs} When Hitler had the term {das Juden} plastered all about, he unknowingly was slandering the name of an Eloheem.

...As to who was a JEW to Hitler, you might even qualify. One only needed to be 1/8 part JEWish to qualify. Antisemites believe in a JEWish race. Do you know why? How do you hate your own race? Please test what I say. Call a Rabbi on the phone and ask him. I am telling you the truth. There are few "JEWish" genes that can be tested for. Of Levitical {priestly} genes that dominate people with names like Cohen {priest} and Levi or Halevi etc, the greatest percentage of these genes belong to a south-eastern African tribe. You are not as well informed as you think. Even Maimonides was a convert.

....Michael

Malachiah

10-19-2002, 07:43 AM

you are of the teachings of Balaam, which are geared to destroy Israel.
Malachiah

Glori

10-20-2002, 03:09 PM

Michael,

I made reference to Gen.18.1-3 in a previous post, where the L-rd appeared to Abraham as three men, and questioned how one L-rd appeared as three men.

You answered that "when an angel visits anyone in the name of YHWH, that is YHWH, yet you quote scripture that says "G-d is not man" in rejection of Messiah. Here you say that G-d does take on the image of a man, but deny that it is possible for him to raise up a pure man to appear in with the ultimate message.

I am wondering what your expectation is for that prophet that G-d said he would raise up and put his words in his mouth, and him we would hear, or G-d would require it of him (Deut.18.18)? If YHWH raised up a prophet like unto Moses and put his words in his mouth, wouldn't those words first have to be published before the scattered Jews could read/hear them?

I mentioned that Jer.23.6 said "and this is the name whereby he shall be called, The Lord is our righteousness".
You responed "..I'm not sure what your question is here. But the name of YHWH is always righteous."
The point I was making is that one could have the name "Tsidkenu", and it would mean "the L-rd is our righteousness", but that name does not have the letters of YHWH or Yahudah or any of G-d's name.

I just finished the book of Joshua, and I could not help but notice that the reference is to "The G-d of Israel", not by his name. It did not make the difference in his protection, what YHWH wanted was for Israel not to be corrupted by the idolitry of the nations that he gave to their hand. He was so stern on that matter that when only one man coveted their finery, the whole house of Israel went into defeat. And again, when that man was found out, not only was he put to death, but his whole family with him.

Oh, and the thing about you not being a blood Jew, is that only those with the same DNA as the first fathers can experience holy rememberance, the rest have to come to light through those who have it, and even they cannot access it unless their hearts are right. That is the light that "the word" gives that YHWH sent in via Jehoshua (see 2424 in Strongs).

With that I will point out that where Yeshua said in John 17.8 "I have given them the words that thou gavest me", that John 6.63 says those words are "spirit and they are life" - and Ps.138.2 prophesied " Thou hast magnified thy word above ALL thy name".

Glori :)

simchat_torah

10-20-2002, 08:42 PM

While it is true that converts are accepted in Judaism, and are more than accepted, what you express, Thummim, is not of Jewish conversion. It is not a choice you make. Honestly, from reading much of this thread, I have seen that you understand very little of Judaism. I'm not being disrespectful, but I don't want others to believe what you say is accepted as normative judaism. You can not be a self proclaimed Jew merely because you choose to do so. Halachically, biblically, and ethnically it is not so.

As far as the conversion process goes in modern observance:
One must first express a union of faith to the Jewish people, not merely to the Jewish G-d, but to the people. A Rabbi then takes this convert under his wing for one year. This relationship is more than that of a teaching relationship, but also akin to that of a father/son. During this time, a convert, or proselyte, is often required to do many extra observances while slowly taking on the whole of not only written Torah, but halachic decisions of the ruling beit din as well. An excellent example of this could be the defining of "work" on Sabbath for a community, or better yet, the abstaining thereof. At the end of the year's time-table, the proselyte goes before the Beit Din and answers several questions. After the cross-examination, the individual then, if male, receives a dam brit (if previously circumcised... this is a drawing of blood from the tip of the penis) or a full circumcision if they haven't been so upon birth (generally this isn't done as the practice in America has become quite a secular one, most baby boys are circumcised in hospitals upon birth nowadays). Then after the man has healed, he then takes a Mikvah (ritual immersion in water). A femal also takes the mikvah, but is trained during the year of supervision by the rabbi the laws of Niddah (uncleanliness of the monthly cycle). After immersion, the male then recites his first parsha (this practice varies upon community, other communities have other forms of acceptance) and both the female convert and male convert partake of the kiddish and challah.

Once a person has fully been accepted as a convert, they are not to be treated as a "convert" but strictly as a Jew.

The above conversion process is practiced by conservative, orthodox, ultraorthodox, chassidic, ect... but not by reform. In reform Judaism very little is done... if anything at all. In fact, most reform jews do not even practice the torah on a daily basis, but are merely "jews by ethnicity".

Thummim, I suppose that if you were brought through a reform synagouge you may simply declare yourself Jewish, but there is no formal conversion process in reform judaism. In fact, there really isn't any formal "religion" or even "relationship with HaShem" in reform Judaism. So to say that one has converted to reform Judaism really means nothing but a clingning to an ethnic group. Theologically it truly means nothing. But if you were brought through a conservative or orthodox synagouge conversion process, you show no tell tale signs.

Shalom,
Japheth.

ATAT

11-12-2002, 05:23 PM

With the greatest of respect to the post, I have some personal opinions based on my study.

So let me 'concur' with the following alternative perspectives on an Orthodox Conversion:

#1. There is no time-table. I've known some conversions to take years, and (gasp!) a conversion done in less than a week (the boy was NOT from a traditional background the rabbi thought he was a good candidate.

#2. There are differing opinions on where the dam (blood) comes from in the case of a prior circumcision.
Believe it or not, I'm under the impression that the tip could have make the bris invalid (as if it wasn't done).

Biologically, the orlah (forskin) was never attached to the tip, rather, it was attached lower 'down' the shaft. Imagine your sock welded to your shin. It's not attached / welded to your toes, it's connected further up. Therefore, the dam should - according to an opinion, come from there.

It is not a prerequesite that the rabbi be as close to the candidate as mentioned, although the rabbi must take responsibility for the person's knowledge along the lines described so very accurately by the prior post.

and both the female convert and male convert partake of the kiddish and challah.

I'm not familiar with the idea that they couldn't prior. Why not?
I've never heard they couldn't have some of the wine and bread at the Shabbos table, why couldn't they? (m'vushal a side issue not on point)

Once a person has fully been accepted as a convert, they are not to be treated as a "convert" but strictly as a Jew.

Well, there are commandments to love the convert, and the convert has an access to certain charity, biblically speaking, that the normal stam Jew does not have. And it is usually understood you can not remind a convert of his past. On a seperate point I'm under the strong impression it is clearly forbidden to make fun of his past.

There is a question of arvis, it might not apply to converts (also ref women). I am extremely unsure on this point.

As well as land, they won't inherrit land, except through children, sort of... (well, the Leviim dont' get it either, so I'm in good company).

As well as kiddushin of a woman to a kahun is usser, I'm pretty sure, with a possible exception or two... I'm uncertain on this point as well.

As for someone who is Jewish because he 'chooses' to be Jewish, I agree with the thrust of the prior thread completely.

Why not just announce you are a French Citizen?

I could just say, 'You know what? I'm going to add the dove -that lighted on Jesus' shoulder to the Godhead, making it no longer a 'Trinity', rather, it is a 'Quintity' (I know that's one too many, I'm taking applications for the fifth position, I'm thinking about giving it to Compassion.) I'm also thinking about demoting Jesus to an angel, and I'm going to add a second Pope in my belief system. The new Poppe will be superiour to the Roman Pope. What am I going to call myself? I'm a 'Catholic.'

Now, why not just admit that your definition of 'Jew' isn't what the world knows is a 'Jew'.

Even if you donate half your income to France, that don't make you a Frenchman. Even if you are far more loyal to France than other citizens.

I do believe that if someone wanted to be a Jew, then God will make it possible. I believe that anyone can be a Jew.

Why? What's the point?

To serve God through following His laws.

God tells you to do something as a requirement because it WAS a requirement, and then you do it?

That's as close as you can get.

A soldier is much closer to his Commander than a volunteer worker is to his supervisor.

But they both have a connection.

Let me close this with all personal respect to all writers.

simchat_torah

11-12-2002, 05:59 PM

Shalom Atat,

I appreciate your insights and your comments.

"There is no time-table. I've known some conversions to take years, and (gasp!) a conversion done in less than a week...."

This is true, it's simply that a typical Orthodox conversion is understood to be a year long, but it can be done differently, upon the discretion of the overseeing Rabbi.

"There are differing opinions on where the dam (blood) comes from in the case of a prior circumcision."

Really? I've never heard this before... quite fascinating.

I had always assumed (on my part) that it was the head region that recieved the "prick".

but, that is my assumption, nothing more.

In reference to the Kiddish and challah:
"I'm not familiar with the idea that they couldn't prior. Why not?
I've never heard they couldn't have some of the wine and bread at the Shabbos table, why couldn't they?"

I suppose I have made myself unclear on this matter. They were more than welcome to participate before conversion, but this is simply a tradition that is held at conversion.

I guess we could relate this to a kiss at a wedding ceremony. Though the couple (more than likely) has kissed in the past, it is tradition that at the wedding a Kiss is expected by the Bride and Groom.

"Well, there are commandments to love the convert, and the convert has an access to certain charity, biblically speaking, that the normal stam Jew does not have. And it is usually understood you can not remind a convert of his past. On a seperate point I'm under the strong impression it is clearly forbidden to make fun of his past."

Yes, that is one interpretation (though I don't recall if it was a halacha) from the passage concerning not boiling a kid (or calf) in it's mother's milk.

Ironically, this then puts another twist on the understanding of this commonly misunderstood passage, nu?

BTW, I really enjoyed your "frenchman" allegory... quite humorous.

Shalom and Welcome Atat,
Japheth.

ATAT

11-15-2002, 02:02 AM

Thanks for another great post.

The 'Frenchman' analogy I got from Rabbi Gottlieb in Ohr Somayach yeshiva years ago.

All the best!

MyNameIsYura

03-03-2003, 06:22 PM

I truly hope no one will ignore my post but first read Proverbs 19:13 before you even dismiss it.

Shalom alaychem Matthew23.

Yehoshua Ha'Mashiach is not the true God, and those who claim that he is the true God are known as idolaters.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. That's the KJV.

The Father = The true God, John 17:3 & 1st John 5:20.

The word = logos, not literally Yehoshua Ha'Mashiach. Going back to Genesis, the true God spoke and it was, the true God spoke and it was. The word became flesh through all the prophets.

Holy Ghost = the Spirit of God.

All these is God, it's not a Trinity.

John 8:56-59

Hmmm. Why didn't J-sus say, "before Abraham was, I was"?

The word there for "Am" in the Greek is "eimi" which means: "to be, to exist, to happen, to be present."

Avraham did not stop to exist, and if you would use the words "I was" then you must ask if he "still will be".

Yehoshua Ha'Mashiach was the first-created. He was the first to come from En Sof.

If you look at the discussion in John 8, they said that Avraham was their father, but Yehoshua Ha'Mashiach said the evil one was their father and so on. The name Avraham was used, so this may be why Yehoshua chose Avraham instead of someone else to be before them.

I go more into John 8:58 here: http://pub13.ezboard.com/fneedsomewisdomfrm7.showMessage?topicID=30.topic

Exodus 3:14 And God said to Moses, "I AM (ego eimi) WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you."

This is incorrect, the true God never used the words "I am who I am". I explain this here: http://pub13.ezboard.com/fneedsomewisdomfrm7.showMessage?topicID=13.topic

Christianity is a Jewish movement.

Sorry, but you are very mistaken. The Apostles were of Judaism Netsarim [which I and a few others are of]. The Apostles did not start Christianity. If you want to learn more about us, go to our website: http://www14.brinkster.com/stneil777/nj.html

NT makes it clear that J-sus is G-d!

Please, do me a favor and do not make me laugh at such statements. B'rit Chadashah is 100% against Jesus being the true God.

If anyone wants to prove to me that Yehoshua Ha'Mashiach is the true God, go for it.

As for the Trinity, no such myth. But if someone wants to prove it to me, go for it.