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Old 11-11-2002, 08:34 PM
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What was Y'shua's sacrafice???

Shalom Mishpochah,

What I am about to present to you is taken from a dear friend of mine. He posted this in another discussion board, one that I'm sure no one here has been too...

However, I will leave his two posts untainted, then present what I replied with... and there is still so much more to be discussed on this issue....
Without furhter adue, here it is:
(p.s. His name is Mikha'el, and He's a rabbi in Alaska who believes in Y'shua... I will also point out he previously was involved as a Rabbi in a Hassidic congregation in California, and now is the Rabbi of a conservative group in Alaska)

Post #1
What was Yeshua's Sacrifice?

Shalom everyone,

I'm writing this because I've been toiling over some different ideas and problems lately and I'd likd as much feedback as I can get. Please be patient as I'm sure it will be long. I feel I need to be as exhaustive as I can for anyone else to understand where I'm coming from.

Sometime ago, I set out to do a study on why Yeshua was the Messiah. Taking a look at all the prophesies concerning Him. Along the way, I came into a few difficulties and sought out some help in that area. I came to a few new conclusions as well, and this weekend I spent some time praying and think I've finally got the salvation thing worked out.

The reason I picked this particular forum to voice this opinion was because we already stand together in the understanding that a Jew who is Torah observant and love's HaShem with his whole heart, soul and mind does not need to accept Messiah in order to be saved.

In the book of Hebrews Shaul talks about how Yeshua was our Kapparah for that great Yom Kippur.

I'll begin with this: I struggled with all these Christians that go around talking about "Jesus died for my sins, and is in my heart". The problem I have is, why? So I searched out the prophesies that relate to Moshiach ben Yosef. They all speak of Israel as a whole, not the individual. He was going to come to bear the iniquities of Israel, not Joe Shmo. The second problem I had was a question the Rabbi's have posed. A sin sacrifice is always done for the past sin, not the one you're about to commit. So how can Yeshua's sacrifice be valid if it's paying for everyone's sin past, present and future?

As many know, Israel was divided into two nations after Solomon's death. Northern Israel and Judah. In Yirmeyahu 3 we read how HaShem divorced Israel / Ephraim. Paul then talks about in Romans how the woman who is divorced by her husband and runs off to another, cannot remarry the first husband (this is also found in Deut 24), but if the first husband dies, then she is set free from that which was binding her to him and she is no longer commiting adultery.

Idolatry was one of the things that HaShem hated the most, and here was one of His brides commiting idolatry and in Hoshea we're told that He was going to call them not His people and then His people again. (For those of you who are wondering, this is not a two house teaching, I'm not talking about two house as many teach it today, just bear with me). So Hoshea warns us that Northern Israel would become not his people and then we see Yirmeyahu tell us when that happened.

But Moshiach ben Yosef was to come and die for the transgressions of the people! We're not really told about how Northern Israel was to become His people again, we're only told they will.

So, I've come to a certain conclusion. Messiah came in the name of the Father. Whether you belive in the virgin birth or not, the prophecies say that Moshiach will inherit the name of HaShem. So in essense, by inheriting the name of HaShem, his death was the same as though HaShem, the first husband, had died. Now, Israel was freed from the "title" of whore. She was able to come back to HaShem and no longer be in an adulterous affair.

So what was Yeshua's sacrifice? Was it a pay in advance sacrifice? I'd say that no, it is not, on one hand. It was done so that Israel might be able to come back. Remember that a woman cannot come back to her first husband, but if he dies she is released, and upon his ressurection, she can then marry him again. So, Messiah died for the transgressions of the forefathers, that caused the descendants non-access to their G-d. How can I say then that this is a pay it forward situation? Today, those that were part of Israel and have walked away from HaShem can have that access to him through Messiah. But what about the sins I commit today? As we've seen in times when there was no Temple in the TaNaKh, we get salvation from Teshuvah. When we repent, and turn our eyes towards HaShem, we are then forgiven our sins.

What of Judah though? Judah was never divorced. And for those who have kept the lifestyle of Torah wiht love for G-d and not just out of habit, there is salvation. How does this line up with what we're taught in the New Testament? In Matt. 9:12-13 Yeshua says that the well are not in need of a doctor, but only the sick. He had not come for the righteous but for the sinners. This implies that there are those who are righteous. We also see in Mark 1:2-5 that Yochanan was immersing in the Immersion of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. What? How could he do that, Yeshua hadn't even died yet. Some might argue that his was before the death of Messiah and it was all looking forward to Messiah. Ok, then what they're saying is that, yes, infact, G-d does indeed change. Another interesting passage is in John 4:22. Yeshua is talking with the woman at the well and said to her that they didn't know who they worshipped, but the Jews knew their G-d. Then he says, "You see, salvation is From the Jews". He did not say "to the Jews". Why didn't he say that salvation came from Him?

Another misconception is when Christians think that Yehsua died so that they could be saved. Oy! Can anyone name me a verse in the TaNaKh where salvation was not offered to the Gentiles that wanted to join HaShem? Of course not. There has always been an invitation and a plan for the salvation of anyone who wanted to join HaShem. It wasn't only Hebrews at the foot of Sinai, but they were all Israel. There were Egyptians there as well as descendants of Jacob. They all received the Torah together.

In short, what I've come to understand is this:
Yeshua came a died so that the sins of our forfathers that rejected HaShem and followed after idols could be done away with, once and for all. By this, our descendants are allowed access to HaShem and are given the opportunity to be saved. It is a great thing that he's done. But once we've returned, or made teshuvah, we must follow Torah and it is he that endures to the end that shall be saved. A little prayer when you're twenty doesn't give you assurance of "Salvation". It is walking daily with HaShem until the end that assures us a part in the Olam HaBa. As it is said, he that lives his life Holy and in his last days curses HaShem will have no part in the Olam HaBa, yet he who has lived wickedly, if he makes teshuvah at the end of his days, it will all be accounted righteousness to him.

I'd appreciate any comments and corrections in my reasoning. Thanks for hearing me out. I'm still not sure that I've made my view understood, I'm not sure how to articulate this subject well.

Be well,
Baruch atah Adonai Eloheinu Melech Ha'Olam

"Those who love Torah find great peace, and nothing can make them stumble." Tehillim 119:165
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Old 11-11-2002, 08:37 PM
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Post #2....

A couple more

I forgot to mention a couple of other things that led me to this understanding. There are two scriptures where Yeshua makes a couple of different, interesting statements.

Matt. 10:1-6 He sends out his Talmidim and tells them not to go to the Gentiles, but go unto the lost sheep of the "House" of Israel.

Matt. 15:22-24 There is a Gentile woman who comes to him and He tells her that he came only to the lost sheep of the "House" of Israel.

Also remember that in Yirmeyahu 31:31-34 HaShem says that He'll make a New Covenant with the "House" of Israel and the "House" of Judah. He then goes on to say that He'll write the Torah on the hearts of those from the House of Israel. Judah had it there already, for they had not lost their husband.

His mission was not necessarily unto the Gentile, nor the Jew. It was to lost Israel. As I understand, the common phrase used, Sinners, was directed towards the Hellenistic Jews, who had abandoned Torah. So when he came for sinners, it was for those who left Torah by the wayside instead of speaking about it to their children when they walked along the wayside.

What about the references made towards the Gentile now being able to be saved? Acts 10 and other passages that are related? I'd suggest that it's becuase come this time in history the Halacha to become an Israelite was so strict that many Gentiles weren't coming to faith. The Jewish people of the day were not being as bright a light unto the nations as possibly they could have been. In making such restrictions, they called the Gentiles unclean, when in fact, HaShem did not call them unclean. The middle wall of partition that was broken down was actually that fence around Torah that prohibited the coming of the Gentiles, or at least making it so difficult.

I do find it interesting that today's Pharisees (modern day Judaism) so much of their teachings that Yehsua came against in the first century, has changed to match more closely to Yeshua's teachings on those particular subjects. The first century Judaism is not identicle to today's Judaism. There are differences in the teachings today, at least since the inquisition and the crusades and Yom HaShoah, but for the most part, teachings on the heart issues are in line with Yeshua's teachings.

Another interesting one, to me anyway, is where it talks about believing in Yeshua and being saved. If we read that a little differently and place commas in different locations, being Greek nor Hebrew have commas, it would say
"Believe in the L-rd Yeshua, and be saved". In other words, if you believe in Yeshua and what he did, you can return unto HaShem and be saved by HaShem.

I guess this is about my 64 cents worth, since it's far more than 2 cents.

Again, I welcome any and all responses. If I'm way out there, show me. If you've just never seen it that way and think it's worth considering, tell me that too.

Shalom U'Brochot,
Baruch atah Adonai Eloheinu Melech Ha'Olam

"Those who love Torah find great peace, and nothing can make them stumble." Tehillim 119:165
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Old 11-11-2002, 08:39 PM
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And now my own words....

I had also posted in this thread my take on Acts 10, which I feel applies to the discussion at hand. However, first I will post my reply to the above posts...

My reply #1:
Mikha'el... achi,

I have to be honest, there is so much more that I want to discuss concerning this very topic!!!

We have barely begun to unveil what lies beneath, nu?

None the less, what I feel is the most important statement Y'shua made regarding this topic is:
"I came only for the lost sheep of Yisra'el..."

That's quite a bold statement.
Combine it with, "I did not come for the healthy but for the sick" and other such statements, we begin to see that Y'shua did not come for everyone... correct?

He references this idea several times.

One more thing that I noticed the other day...
Sha'ul, in Acts 21, had just returned from his "missionary" journey. Who did he go to see???

Act 21:20 And when they heard [it], they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
Act 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise [their] children, neither to walk after the customs.

Hmmm.... seems to me that Sha'ul went to the Jews, nu?
We have to remember, that according to Jewish Halacha of the First Century, a Jew who had turned away from Torah and Yisrael was no longer Jewish, but a gentile... and that they were less than a gentile! (i.e. the Samaritans, ect.)

I have so much more to say about that, but first I want to share a few thoughts on Acts 10, that I feel are quite related....

to be continued...
Baruch atah Adonai Eloheinu Melech Ha'Olam

"Those who love Torah find great peace, and nothing can make them stumble." Tehillim 119:165
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Old 11-11-2002, 08:45 PM
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My reply #2

Acts 10 Controversy...

This past Shabbat, I had the incredible opportunity to spend several hours with Avi ben Mordechai (author of Messiah volumes 1-3). He is probably the deepest individual I have ever been blessed with the opportunity to meet. We discussed very intensely Acts chapter 10, and I would like to present these ideas to you.

Of course many of you know that Acts 10 has been used by the ch-rch to prove that G-d did away with Kashrut (Kosher) mitzvot.
And amongst some messianic circles (the observant anyway) it is taught that this idea is wrong because Ha Shem gave the interpretation to the dream, and that interpretation is that the gentiles are clean.
However, I will present the more mystical ideas behind the reasoning WHY HaShem presented Kepha with that conclusion, as well as clarify the conclusion itself (which I believe is slightly misconstrued).

Let's start with Act 10:

"9 About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10 He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance."

There is some type of a reoccuring theme of hunger. If any of you have an insight into this, please share...

"11 He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners."

Now this is interesting...
It actually says in the Greek, that the "heavens" not heaven opened. This is in reference to mystical esoteric Judaism, but we will not go too deep into that aspect. Suffice it to say that in Midrash Rabbah Ecclesiastes 9:8 (a parable about wedding garments) we can determine that this "something like a sheet" is a tallit, as we can see it has four courners.
But, back to the meat of the subject...

"12 It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air."

This is where I believe the heart of the matter to lie.
What are these four-footed animals, reptiles, and birds? What do they represent? Why specifically are these creatures listed?

Let us first turn to Tehillim (psalms) 115:1-8

"1 Not to us, O L-RD, not to us but to your name be the glory, because of your love and faithfulness.
2 Why do the nations say, "Where is their G-d?"
3 Our G-d is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him.
4 But their idols are silver and gold, made by the hands of men.
5 They have mouths, but cannot speak, eyes, but they cannot see;
6 they have ears, but cannot hear, noses, but they cannot smell;
7 they have hands, but cannot feel, feet, but they cannot walk; nor can they utter a sound with their throats.
8 Those who make them will be like them, and so will all who trust in them."

Take special note of vs. 8...
They will become like that which they worship. Now turn with me to Romans 1

"18 The wrath of G-d is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness..."

Just a note: in order to suppress the truth, you must first have the truth. So this is speaking of those who have had the truth, but now suppress the truth.

"19 since what may be known about G-d is plain to them, because G-d has made
it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world G-d's invisible qualities--his
eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

One way in which we interpret (well, this should be the only way) the Brit Chadasha is by using the Tanach as our dictionary. Interestingly, in the Hebrew Brit Chadasha the word behind "men" in vs. 20 is "adam" not "ish". Adam (man) is ONLY used in reference to Yisrael, never to refer to
gentiles... never.
It is a term soley used for referal to Yisrael only.

Now, if you also look at Zech. 10 you will see the story of Ephraim, or the dispersed of Yisrael. These are the Jews who were a dispersed (now of the diaspora). There are many many prophecies of the regathering of Yisrael. In fact, it is this group which Y'shua was primarily interested in reaching:

Mattiyahu 15:25 "I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Yisrael."

So, here (rom. 1) we have a group that is clearly referred to as Yisrael, yet has forsaken Torah... a group I think is obviously the dispersion (or any of Yisrael unfaithful to Torah, but mainly in reference to the dispersion as so many prophecies are in alignment).
Let us continue in Rom.1:

"21 For although they knew G-d, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal G-d for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles."

AHA! Here we are...
so, this group that was given Torah, but has forsaken (or suppressed) Torah has fallen into worship of: birds, animals, and reptiles....
remember psalms 115? They became what they worshipped?
Let's continue...

"24 Therefore G-d gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
25 They exchanged the truth of G-d for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen."

Here we have it! They WORSHIPPED these created beings, as opposed to the Creator Being.
Now let's take a look at Ezekiel 34

"7 `Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the L-RD:
8 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign L-RD, because my flock lacks a shepherd and so has been plundered and has become food for all the wild animals, and because my shepherds did not search for my flock but cared for themselves rather than for my flock...
11 "`For this is what the Sovereign L-RD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them....
28 They will no longer be plundered by the nations, nor will wild animals devour them. They will live in safety, and no one will make them afraid.
29 I will provide for them a land renowned for its crops, and they will no longer be victims of famine in the land or bear the scorn of the nations.
30 Then they will know that I, the L-RD their G-d, am with them and that they, the house of Israel, are my people, declares the Sovereign L-RD. 31 You my sheep, the sheep of my pasture, are people, and I am your God, declares the Sovereign L-RD.'"

Baruch atah Adonai Eloheinu Melech Ha'Olam

"Those who love Torah find great peace, and nothing can make them stumble." Tehillim 119:165
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Old 11-11-2002, 08:46 PM
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the rest...

and Hosea 2 (which many of you are familiar with):
"23 I will plant her for myself in the land; I will show my love to the one I called `Not my loved one. ' I will say to those called `Not my people, ' `You are my people'; and they will say, `You are my G-d.'"
Now, according to 1st century Halacha, those of the dispersion were called not His people... even though Jewish by birth, they were rejected as being Jews. We know this is the dispersion because chapter 1 says:
"10 "Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. In the place where it was said to them, `You are not my people,' they will be called `sons of the living G-d.' 11 The people of Judah and the people of Israel will be reunited, and they will appoint one leader and will come up out of the land, for great will be the day of Jezreel."

We can even tie this in even tighter... look again at ch. 2:18
"In that day I will make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field and the birds of the air and the creatures that move along the ground. Bow and sword and battle I will abolish from the land, so that all may lie down in safety."

So, it is with the people who had Torah, who WERE a part of Yisrael, who suppressed or rejected Torah, that Ha Shem is now making this covenant with!
The people who are called birds, beasts, and reptiles!

We even have final proof from Acts 10 as well...
"28He said to them: "You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But G-d has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean..."

Again, the word in the Hebrew texts is "adam", not "ish"... thus Cornelius was a part of the dispersion. Maybe he didn't know it, but he WAS! Maybe many of you who are turning to Torah (and I'm not saying this as factually) are a part of the dispersion. Many many people who have been empassioned to follow Torah in these times have looked through their family history and have found that they do in fact have Jewish blood. Now, I am not in support of the 10 tribes theories, replacement theology, or any of that nonesense. But it is very likely that if your heart has been captured for Torah that you are a part of Yisrael's bloodline and do not know it.
Now, gentiles have always been allowed to join themselves to Yisrael either through conversion, or what is known as a righteous gentile (and there was even a specific place in the Temple set aside for the righeous gentile). Thus, I am in no way excluding gentiles from the kingdom, the door has always been open, and always will be. But in acts 10, something very different was going on.

Finally, the statement made in the vision:
"Get up, Kepha, Kill and eat." vs. 13

there is also something else going on behind these scenes. If Ha Shem desired Kepha to actually eat unclean food, you would have seen that as:
1) the conclusion of the dream
2) a HUGE ordeal made about unclean animals now food...
yet, neither are EVER addressed... ever.

So what does it mean to kill and eat?
Is anyone here familiar with Zevach Shalamim? This is what is called the peace offering. This is where one side of the two parties makes a sacrafice, then they eat the sacrafice together. This can be seen in Bereshith (gen.) 31:51-54

What I believe Ha Shem was showing was that Kepha was to go and make peace with those who were cut off from being called G-d's people. In other words, to make a Zevach Shalamim... or Shalom.
We can also see this as a continual struggle for Kepha, when we read on into
Gal. 2.

Hopefully, the waters are clearer and not muddier concerning Acts 10.

PLEASE share your thoughts, and tell me what you think of all this.

Shalom to you as you weigh this out in your minds,

p.s. I owe many of the ideas presented to Avi ben Mordechai. He revealed much of this to me in our discussions.
Baruch atah Adonai Eloheinu Melech Ha'Olam

"Those who love Torah find great peace, and nothing can make them stumble." Tehillim 119:165
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Old 11-11-2002, 08:49 PM
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And now some new ideas....

I've been looking further into the translation of a simple word in the Greek of the NT that makes, dare I say, as big or even BIGGER difference than the translation of nomos!!! The word is "hellen" - typically translated as "gentile" or "Greek". Take a moment to consider the implications of translating this (and related terms) as hellen-JEWS (not the typical hellen-gentiles, as is assumed). If it hasn't hit you yet, let me give you some food for thought:
1) Rather than "Paul, the apostle to the gentiles" we have "Shaul, the one sent to the Hellenized Jews of the dispersion" -- This would be a paradigm-shift that would rock everything!!! And - if this translation is accurate - would demonstrate just how far replacement has been taken!
2) Rather than "gentiles" as the "uncultivated wild olive branch" being "grafted into the culitvated olive branch (for the first time)" we have "Hellenized (dispersed) Israel" being "grafted BACK INTO (regathered/teshuvah/renewed) the olive branch" from which they had become estranged and understandably "wild" in comparison to.

3) Halacha (Oral Torah) was called a "fence" for the Torah by the rabbis. Part of that "fence" meant that faithful Israel needed to stay seperated from "Hellenized Israel" (for example, not eating in their houses like Kepha was condemned for doing by Shaul). When Shaul speaks of the "middle wall of partition" being "broken down" ...are Christians right in saying this refers to the seperation between "Jew" and "gentile"? The Aramaic (from the Peshita) for "middle wall of partition" is the VERY SAME termonology used by the rabbis for - yep, that's right - "fence" (of the Oral Torah!!!). SO... let's put it together. Shaul (submitted to the beit din headed by Ya'chov [James]) was explaining the halachic decision made by the Beit Din HaNetzarim located in Yerushalaim, namely, that Israelites-Tzadikim (righteous Israelites) were NOT to remain seperated from Hellenized-Israelites-Ba'al-Teshuva (Hellenized Israelites who were returning to Torah, but not YET living righteous lives) BECAUSE the previous halachic decision ("fence") had been "abolished in the flesh of Mashiac" BECAUSE Mashiac had come FOR THE VARY REASON of cleansing Israel of her sins and making possible the REGATHERING of the DISPERSED OF ISRAEL. Ahhhhhh... now THAT makes sense in the context.

4) Getting back to Shaul's self-conception... what was it he saw himself as doing? Was he "sent to the gentiles" because the "Jews" had rejected their Messiah? This sets the stage for the obvious conclusion that "gentiles" replaced "Israel after the flesh" because they are the "spiritual Israel" who accepted what the "Jews" forfeited. Here's where a MASSIVE paradigm shifts takes place. "Jews" (in the Gk) is actually "Judeans" (i.e. the Israelites who were NOT in the dispersion, or Judeans who had moved into the dispersion for whatever reason). Let's try out the (correct?) translation and see what happens. Shaul sees the "Judean Israelites" as not (as a whole) accepting their Mashiach. Therefore, Shaul goes to the "Hellenized Jews" in the dispersion, because Yahoshua is the Messiah of ALL Israel (not just the Judeans). After all, the Neviim (prophets) had spoken EXTENSIVELY (nearly all of them!) about the REGATHERING of the dispersed of ISRAEL. The dispersed needed to hear that their redemption had come. Keep in mind that Shaul saw himself as an example of him who's "feet on the mountain brings good news ("gospel")". According to Isaiah (and nearly ALL the other prophets!), who was it that was to receive this "good news"? Was it "gentiles"? Ahhh, NO! It was the dispersed of Israel of course, the "Hellenized Jews". It was good news because Elohim was to regather them and re-establish Israel to make her a "praise in all the earth" and to RENEW the covenant He had made with them. It was good news because Israel - though they had violated the covenant and been scattered to the four corners of the earth - was now to be regathered and re-established. Who was to make this happen? The "son of David" of course - the Messiah. The same one that Shaul was offering. I tried to ask myself the questions that a 1st century faithful Jew would ask. What in the Scriptures would drive Shaul to be so passionate about being "sent to the gentiles"? - I don't see it. On the other hand, what in the Scriptures would drive him to be so passionate about being "sent to the dispersed (Hellenized) of Israel"? - I see nearly ALL of the prophets VERY PASSIONATELY describing this sort of calling!!! I suspect Shaul would be VERY HONORED to call the dispersed of Israel to do teshuvah, but I think he would be VERY CONFUSED if he was asked to go to the "gentiles". Being "sent to the gentiles" makes absolutely no sense according the Scriptures!!! However, being "sent to the dispersed (Hellenized) of Israel" is in fact the ENTIRE THEME of the prophets!!!!!!! And, notice where in fact Shaul goes - the SYNAGOGUES.

5) I could go on, because the possibilities open a NEW PARADIGM for interpretting Shaul, the Netzarim, and the entire foundation of how they saw: themselves, Hellenized Israelites, and gentiles. Just IMMAGINE... Shaul (the one sent to the Hellenized-Jews) writing to SYNAGOGUES in the dispersion, rather than "Paul" (the apostle to the gentiles) writing to "Christian Churches" he "established (from scratch)" throughout the world. Which truly makes sense... I think Shaul was "sent" to the "hellens" alright (the literal Gk), but I think the "hellens" were hellen-JEWS... after all, if we indeed see his letters as written to synagogues (not "churches") then we can see how "Jews" could be the obvious context for which "hellens" he was refering to. There were several "hellens" and some of them were Jews. This is esspecially interesting in Romans 9-11.

Well... write me back and tell me what you think. I admit, the idea is radical, but radical in comparison to what? It's only radical to Christian theology, which is replacement garbage. On the other hand, NOT interpretting it this way is radical to Jewish theology. This interpretation flows perfectly and consistantly, and I am growing in the opinion that it surely must be the right one... not "gentiles" but "Hellenized Jews" of the dispersion.

Baruch atah Adonai Eloheinu Melech Ha'Olam

"Those who love Torah find great peace, and nothing can make them stumble." Tehillim 119:165
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Old 11-11-2002, 08:50 PM
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simchat_torah simchat_torah is offline
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I looked up "hellen" in my concordance and did some cross-checking for its use in the LXX (this comes in very handy ever since I have been enrolled in my greek classes). I found very quickly another term - "ethnos". This term is usually translated "nation" or "people group". It can mean bloodline, but that specific use is usually the word
"phoo-lay" (used for "tribe" in NT, as in the tribes of Israel). In Isa. 49 (you should look this up) for example, ethnos is translated "gentiles" or "nations". HOWEVER, the context seems to GLARINGLY contradict this translation!!! It seems obvious (to my limited understanding anyway) that it is the dispersed of Israel that is being refered to - look elsewhere from chps 40-55 to see what I mean. Isa 49:1-7 is sometimes called the other "servant's song" because it resembles Isa 53. The "literal meaning" (first level of the so called "four-levels of understanding" - PaRDes as explaned at SANJ) of Isa 53 is obvious - "suffering servant = Israel". The other "levels of understanding" are what's used to point to the Messiah.
Here's the thing. By ALL OTHER wording in Isa 40-55 it seems the dispersed of Israel are who receive the "light in the darkness" and wait for the "justice" (mishpatim) to be delivered to them. HOWEVER (and here's where I think the confusion comes in), it is the "servant" (of YHVH) that brings all these things to the "ethnos" (what's translated as "nations" or "gentiles"). Here's the confusion. The translators ask (I know this because I went to the LXX and the Masoretic Hebrew to translate this myself), "How can 'Israel' be the 'servant' and deliver this 'light' to 'Israel' (as in the dispersed of Israel)???????" That's the question I asked myself in trying to understand these cryptic prophecies. I think other translators have asked these same questions, and have consequently solved this apparent paradox by translating "ethnos" as "nations/gentiles".

HOWEVER, THIS FAILS!!! The context seems to refer to these same "ethnos" people as ISRAEL!!! How can this be??? I asked myself this and pondered...

When I was trying to understand Shaul's writings I was baffled why he contrasted "ethnos" with "Israel". I was also baffled why he contrasted "hellen" with "Israel". These are the two main terms that Christians translators use to prove that their "apostle Paul" was "sent to the gentiles". (By the way, the Greek can also be translated as "amoung the ethnos ["nations"]). I thought to myself, "Isa also seems to contrast "ethnos" with "Israel", but Isa seems to mean this in such a way that "ethnos" is actually the DISPERSED OF ISRAEL!!!


What if Shaul read to prophet Isaiah... What if Shaul understood the "servant" to be Israel-the-faithful-remant... What Shaul also used PaRDes (deeper levels of understanding beyond the literal) to understand a more hidden meaning of this "servant" to ALSO indicate the Messiah... What if Shaul understood the contrast between "Israel" and "ethnos" to be contrasting "Israel-the-faithful-remnant" with "the dispersed of Israel"... What if Shaul used "ethnos" to describe the dispersed of Israel in his letters SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE that term was already used in the LXX to describe the dispersed of Israel, thus making it obvious WHO he was refering to and making it easy to make the conection between his ministry and Isaiah's prophecies... What if this has been OBVIOUS the whole time but Christian translators have only perpetuated the the false dogma (like they have in everything else) and they can't see past the dogma anyway because 1900 years of "scholarship" has blinded people to any other interpretation... Then again, what if I'm wrong...

These questions kept me up last night with books all over my floor. It would all come together if the LXX translation of Isaiah uses "ethnos" (contrasted with Israel) to mean the "dispersed of Israel". If that is so, then there can be no other interpretation to Shaul's letters, PERIOD - case closed. Shaul proved his message using "Scripture" and the Bereans (most likely Greek-speaking-Jews) confirmed his message in the SCRIPTURES - Tanach. Isaiah is by far quoted the most (second only to Devarim, Dt.), and understanding Isa would reveal how Shaul viewed his mission!!! Other quotes he uses are revealing. In Romans he quotes Hosea (speaking for YHVH) in saying (paraphrased) "Those I called 'not-my-people' I will call 'my-people'". This is UNARGUABLY refering to the dispersed of Israel in the book of Hosea, so why should we think Shaul is speaking of someone else in his letter? Did Shaul not know what Scripture meant??? It could be argued that Shaul was using PaRDeS to apply this to "gentiles", but I don't see why if there is a better answer. What if Shaul - following the exact same wording as he found in Isaiah - contrasted "Israel" with "ethnos" to mean contrasting "Israel-the-remnant" with "Israel-the-dispersed-and-captive-in-darkness"....... This makes sense when trying to interpret the beginning of Romans chp 11.

Equally as important, "Jews" needs to be translated literally "Judeans". Further research also needs to be done in how first century Jews used the terms "ethnos" and "hellen". For example, if one Jew is speaking with another Jew about Jews, would he simply say "hellen" to refer to a hellenized short for short... or would need to specify "hellenized Jew" rather than simply say "hellen". For example, even today, if an Orthodox Jew is speaking to another Orthodox Jew about another (non-religious) Jew, and he simply calls him "hellenized" he has no need of specified that he doesn't mean "gentile" but he means "hellenized-Jew". This should not seem odd...

Well, in hopes of good responses, Shalom...

Baruch atah Adonai Eloheinu Melech Ha'Olam

"Those who love Torah find great peace, and nothing can make them stumble." Tehillim 119:165
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Old 11-12-2002, 01:00 AM
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Wow! I think that I told you once that I try to keep up with what is going on on the board. Did you take that as a challenge? You've certainly kept me busy.

I believe that Y'shua is Moshiach ben Yosef, and I have turned to Torah to guide my path in life. Does that mean I am a Jew who has been lost? I don't know. I certainly would have liked to been a Jew (an observant Jew). Because, I have gotten a glimpse of the treasure that is contained in the Torah, and Judah holds the key. My prayer is that I might play a little part in the fulfillment of Hashem's plan and the true T'shuvot of His people.
Pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the [messiah] out of a pure heart. (II Tim 2:22)

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Old 11-12-2002, 02:00 AM
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simchat_torah simchat_torah is offline
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That is a beautiful prayer.

Oh, well if I'm supposed to take it as a challenge, then just wait till I get started... just kidding...

Actually, what I have found is that nearly everyone who has felt a longing to Torah, or rather a love for the truth of Torah, when they have researched their ancestory, they have found Jewish heritage there somewhere.

Not a theory, just a fact.

Once I was reading this passage in John (I think it was john anyway). It was after Y'shua had risen and the disciples were on the water fishing, with no luck. Y'shua called out to them to cast onto the other side. when they did, they pulled in 153 fish.

I always wondered, why specifically 153???
Why would it go into such detail unless there is some sort of prophetic symbol or mystical meaning? There had to be a meaning to it.

About a year later I was reading a passage in a Kabbalistic story. There was this man (Elijah) who was playing his flute. He wanted the fish to jump into his boat and dance (flounder around on the bottom of the boat). Yet they would not dance for his flute playing. Then Elijah cast his net into the water and pulled in 153 fish by force.

Kabbalists tell us that these 153 fish represent 153 countries in the last days. That the fish themselves are the Jews who have been dispersed to the nations. They also teach that the flute player is the ressurected (in spirit or person is not clear) Elijah. The net represented Ruach HaKodesh (holy spirit) who called out to the Dispersed Jews among the nations. Kabbalists also say that there are Goyim who will be caught up in the net as it is reeled into the boat.

Y'shua said that Yochanan the Immerser (john the baptist) came playing his flute. Yet, no one entered into Teshuvah (repentance) so Y'shua made "fishers of men".

There is soooooooo much more to this story... yet we are to still see it's fullest fulfillment.

Baruch atah Adonai Eloheinu Melech Ha'Olam

"Those who love Torah find great peace, and nothing can make them stumble." Tehillim 119:165
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Old 11-12-2002, 02:11 AM
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simchat_torah simchat_torah is offline
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The insights to this revelation, Who Yeshua came for and what his sacrafice did, continue to pour forth. I have spoken with many great Rebbes today concerning this matter, as well as various people online. It has only been recently that it has all been falling into place.

like hand and glove.

The "new covenant" or rather, more properly translated, the "REnewed" covenant finds it's foundation in Jeremiah 31.

We know from this passage that the christians are incorrect in abolishing the Torah. However, I am not really touching on that subject tonight, or in this thread... just merely a tidbit... he he he


"Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the L-RD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the L-RD:
Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the L-RD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their G-d, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the L-RD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the L-RD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. "

What does this mean???

First, take careful note of WHO this covenant is established with.

Judah and Israel.

I believe that HaShem is using this renewed covenant, where Torah will be planted upon the heart, to rejoin a broken bride. However, the really neat insight I had last night as I pondered was this...
I had always wondered, what does it mean when it says " And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the L-RD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them..."

Finally it it me!!!

Judah was the faithful brother/neighbor. They remained within the covenant. Yeshua did not come for them, remember? He said he did not come for the righteous, but the unrighteous; he said he came for the sick, not the healthy. He came for The Lost Sheep Of Israel.

The neighbor/brother of Judah was Israel (or Ephraim, in prophetic language). They will be united through Y'shua's sacrafice... He came to bring Teshuvah and repentance BACK TO TORAH!!!.

No longer will Israel follow pagan dieties. No longer will Israel be the "dispersed among the nations". No longer will Israel be "Not My People" (hosea).

NO! They will be united through repentance, and Teshuvah... What Y'shua came to establish!!!

Baruch atah Adonai Eloheinu Melech Ha'Olam

"Those who love Torah find great peace, and nothing can make them stumble." Tehillim 119:165
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