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  #16  
Old 11-07-2002, 09:32 PM
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Shalom Yafet,

Exodus 18 KJV
[13] And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people: and the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening. [14] And when Moses' father-in-law saw all that he did to the people, he said, What is this thing that thou doest to the people? why sittest thou thyself alone, and all the people stand by thee from morning unto even? [15] And Moses said unto his father-in-law, Because the people come unto me to inquire of G-d: [16] When they have a matter, they come unto me; and I judge between one and another, and I do make them know the statutes of G-d, and his laws.
One man (Moses) could not handle the questions of millions of people regarding how Hashem wanted the Torah observed. Moses needed help. So, his father-in-law suggested a method by which the people could have their questions about Torah observance answered.
Exodus 18 KJV
[21] Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear G-d, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens: [22] And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear the burden with thee.
The purpose, as I understand it, of the Beit Din is to make judgements regarding the observance of Torah . . . in the absence of specific commands from Hashem. These judgements must not conflict with the Torah itself.
Deuteronomy 4 KJV
[1] Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the L-RD G-d of your fathers giveth you. [2] Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the L-RD your G-d which I command you.
Is it okay to check the oil in your car on the Sabbath? Obviously, one will not find a specific reference to automobiles in the Torah. So, how does one reach an answer? One must make a judgement based upon the information that is specifically stated in Hashem's word. Among many things, one would have to consider whether or not checking the oil was "servile work," an activity prohibited from being performed and explicitly written in the Torah. The Beit Din's job is to make these determinations.

Can the Beit Din rule that it is now okay to murder or to steal? I don't think so. Such a rule would negate specific commands given to us by the Creator.

The Torah states, "Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days." Can the Beit Din rule that we should now count fifty from Nisan 16 to a day that can be any day of the week? I don't think so. In fact, I believe that one can find several scriptures supporting the idea of rejecting anyone (or group) that espouses activities that conflict with Hashem's commandments. Y'shua, for one, had this to say about going against Torah:
Matthew 5:19 KJV
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
If I am not mistaken, the Sadducees ran the temple in Y'shua's lifetime and observed Pentecost by counting from the weekly Sabbath, as did Joshua. Some time after the destruction of the temple, the observance of Pentecost was changed to what is practiced by the Jew today and conflicts with very specific commands stated in Hashem's Torah.
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  #17  
Old 11-07-2002, 10:27 PM
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Excellent points Hyssop.

In fact, I believe it can be proven that the Netzarim observed after the same fashion as the Saducees concerning this matter (it has to do with passover and when Y'shua and his disciples followed it's traditions, ect.).

"The purpose, as I understand it, of the Beit Din is to make judgements regarding the observance of Torah . . . in the absence of specific commands from Hashem. These judgements must not conflict with the Torah itself."

That would be partially correct. I would also insert that they interpret the commands that are given, as you gave the clear example of "what is considered 'work' on the Sabbath."

However, the argument given by the Pharisetical council of the changing of the observance date of Pentacost is that the passage, ""Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days," remains vague. I personally do not agree, I believe it to be clear and concise, yet their argument is that the passage can be interpreted according to their halacha.

Unfortunately, I do not have my research materials here with me at work (I'm on the job right now) but I'd love to share soon, and very soon, where Y'shua specifically cursed the established Beit Din of his time. As well, I might try to present the idea of an ancient expectation that the Messiah would correct Halacha when he comes. He was expected to not only give correct halacha, but establish some form of righteous halacha in his coming.

Shalom,
Japheth.

Hyssop, that might be where you and I would stand in agreement, that the halacha is tainted. However, as the Beit Din was promised to stand through time, and that the Ruach HaKodesh would guide their decisions, we have to first examine "Which Beit Din currently has the authority of HaShem???" (that is, if one chooses to acknowledge that there even is a Beit Din with the Ruach up it today)
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  #18  
Old 11-07-2002, 11:20 PM
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Yafet,

You stated: "However, as the Beit Din was promised to stand through time, and that the Ruach HaKodesh would guide their decisions . . ."

I am wondering if you have a specific quote in mind. I might hazard a guess, but it's far easier to query the source.

p.s. Are these your normal work hours?

Laylah Tov
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  #19  
Old 11-08-2002, 04:03 AM
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Thumbs down Friggin Frackin...

Okay Hyssop. Would you like to get a translator for the board? I thought I was living in St. Louis, however, I just learned that St. Louis is acctually short for Jerusalem. You know, sometimes these things pass me up. Stop paying attention for a second, and WHAM! they turn the lights out.

emaN dilaV
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  #20  
Old 11-10-2002, 10:23 PM
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Hyssop,

I suppose I never did answer you... lol...
Yeah, my normal work hours are 5pm-1am sun
and 7pm - 3am (or so) Mon - Thurs.

he he he... pretty gross hours, eh?
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"Those who love Torah find great peace, and nothing can make them stumble." Tehillim 119:165
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  #21  
Old 11-11-2002, 06:39 AM
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Actually, I'm somewhat of a night owl. So, it might not be too bad. I imagine it's what one gets used to.

How about an answer to the question that I posed just prior to your work hours? Where do you find the indication that: ". . . the Beit Din was promised to stand through time, and that the Ruach HaKodesh would guide their decisions . . ."?
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  #22  
Old 11-12-2002, 02:15 AM
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Actually, Hyssop, I had at one point read through all those passages quite some time ago. I'll have to go back and look at my notes, but possibly I mentioned them in the discussion in "halachic authority"???
I'm not sure...

I've been ridiculously busy... building a computer for a friend, moving, new job, posting an absurd ammount under the thread "What was Y'shua's sacrafice???" (lol)... and I have yet to answer you as well as visitor in Halachic Authority....
Shame on me....

Dont worry my friend, I'll soon get around to looking up some of what I've been challenged to.

I don't ignore challenges, and I let others know when I'm too busy to get to them... he he he.... or too busy with my own agendas... (ie What was Y'shua's sacrafice??? ) LOL

Hope your not angry...

-J.
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Baruch atah Adonai Eloheinu Melech Ha'Olam

"Those who love Torah find great peace, and nothing can make them stumble." Tehillim 119:165
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  #23  
Old 11-12-2002, 02:44 AM
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Not at all angry . . . and very patient.

Actually, I thought that you had a NT quote in mind. Take your time. I just wasn't sure that it was on your "to-do" list.
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  #24  
Old 12-11-2002, 11:07 PM
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What patience my friend... he he he...

Ok ok ok, here's a small answer, and I'll come back to this again later, but right now I'm somewhat on a break at work...

In Moshe's last address to the people he stated:

"The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until Shiloh comes and to him shall be the obedience of his peoples.

Shiloh is a Jewish idiom referring to the Messiah derived from the word "a gift to him" (shin, yod, lamed, vav).

Talmud tractate Sanhedrein 98b states:

"Rab. said: The world was created only on David's account.
Samuel said: On Moses' account.
R. Johnathan said: For the sake of the Messiah. What is his [the Messiah's] name?
The School of R. Shila said: His name is Shiloh, for it is written, until Shiloh come."

The authority used to judge during capital cases was referred to as the "scepter" or "rod". This is also displayed in the person of the Messiah:

"And there shall come forth a Rod out of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots."
-Yeshiyahu (Isaiah) 11:1

Thus the Rabbis have derived that the Beit Din shall stand until the Moshiach comes to correct and perfect halacha... at that point, the Messiah would have his authority established by his own hand and mouth upon the earth when he returns to rule from the seat of judgement. Then and only then will the authority of the beit din be lifted back to him.

Shalom achi,
Yafet.
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"Those who love Torah find great peace, and nothing can make them stumble." Tehillim 119:165
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  #25  
Old 12-28-2002, 11:46 PM
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hyssop, I am an Orthodox Jew.

I tried reading your argument about Shevous ('Pentecost') and before I jump in and work through your argument, I noticed that you used Joshua as the primary basis for your thinking.


Shouldn't you have based / limitted all of your argument from the Five Books of Moses?

Secondly, have you investigated the reasons why Judaism does what it does?

Put more directly, how is it that Judiasm chose to do it when they do it?

(I'm just curious if you know.)

Thirdly, on what basis do you have a Nissan at all? Not the Japanese car, rather, how do you have any clue when Nissan begins at all? How do you know when Nissan is at all?

Thanks in advance for your replies
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  #26  
Old 01-19-2003, 09:12 PM
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ATAT,

Please accept my apologies for not answering your post. Valid Name told me about it this past Sabbath, and I didn't know (or remember) that you had posted.

Shouldn't you have based / limitted all of your argument from the Five Books of Moses?

What I can see in the Torah does carry a lot of weight, when it comes to decisions about observance. And, in this case, I see the Torah state that the counting continue "unto the morrow after the seventh Sabbath." That would put Shavuot on a Sunday every year. The current observance is not consistant with Torah. This alone would be evidence enough to make me choose to observe Shavuot differently than the modern-day Jew. We, however, have further evidence in scripture to indicate that current observance is in error and, hence, my reference to Joshua.

Secondly, have you investigated the reasons why Judaism does what it does?

Not in-depth. I wonder, though, if there can really be any valid reason for not following the commandment as written.

Put more directly, how is it that Judiasm chose to do it when they do it?

I have been told in the past that there were actually two schools of thought on the subject within Judaism two thousand years ago. The Sadducees ran the Temple and observed Shavuot by always counting from the 1st day of the week and ending on the 1st day of the week; the Pharisees thought that it should be observed as it is today. Some time after the destruction of the second Temple, Shavuot's observance was changed to it's current state. This could be way off-base, and I'm open for suggestions.

(I'm just curious if you know.)

I know little of past history. I'm just stating what I read in the Tanach (and other sources, as available).

Thirdly, on what basis do you have a Nissan at all? Not the Japanese car, rather, how do you have any clue when Nissan begins at all? How do you know when Nissan is at all?

If you want me to admit that I look to the Jew for my information regarding Nissan, I do. Frankly, I've wondered if they are adding the extra months appropriately to make Passover correctly fall in its season, but I have no scriptural reason to doubt that they are observing it correctly. If I did, I would choose to follow Torah over tradition.
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  #27  
Old 01-27-2003, 07:05 AM
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Doesn't the Bible as well as Jesus say to turn to the Pharisees (rabbis) for any decisions about the laws?
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