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Old 09-06-2003, 07:54 PM
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Matthew23 Matthew23 is offline
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The gift

Quote:
Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of G-d- not by works, so that no one can boast.
The faith we have in Elohim is credited as righteousness. This righteousness is a gift.

Do we receive the "circumcision of the heart" before we receive the gift or after we receive the gift?
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Old 09-07-2003, 06:40 PM
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Smile On the 8th day . . .

Greetings Matt!

The Scripture that comes to mind is this:
Quote:
Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Being 'pricked to the heart' appears to be the 'guilt' that is felt:
Quote:
Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
It appears to me that the circumcision of the heart is the laying down and allowing The Father to work in you - however the gift comes with calling on The Name of The Father.

Peace!
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Old 09-08-2003, 11:19 PM
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Lightbulb Marching from Egypt

Greetings Again Matthew,

I was thinking of a word study to do, and this thread made me think of one!

I noticed some order of events that occur with circumcision that I thought might be useful to this thread:

In Egypt (sin) which Isreal has been removed from, the First Passover Lamb was eaten at night (ignorance, darkness). Before anyone was aloud to eat of the Lamb (Messiah), they first had to become circumcised, for no uncircumcized man was aloud to eat of it. Which makes me curious, is it because it is IMPOSSIBLE to eat of The Passover if one's heart is uncircumsized?

Peace!
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Old 09-10-2003, 06:26 PM
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Valid, it's good to hear from you again!

The reason I brought this topic up was because I thought it might shed some light on the truth that we are saved by faith and not by works.

I often think about how we, as believers in Messiah, are a part of His body which is Israel. Then I start to think about how Torah applies to me... How did I become "circumcised"? Or did I ever receive any circumcision?
Quote:
Romans 4:7-17
7“Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the L-rd will never count against him." {Psalm 32:1-2}
9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
13It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of G-d, in whom he believed--the G-d who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.
Now, go back and read Genesis chapter 15 about a man named Abram (simply a gentile at the time ), and see that his faith was "credited to him as righteousness".

Remember that song when you were a kid...

"Father Abraham- had many sons
and many sons had father Abraham
I am one of them, and so are you
So let's just praise the L-RD"
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Old 09-11-2003, 01:45 AM
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Arrow A Tzaddik shall Live by his Faith.

Greetings Matthew!

Good To hear from you as well, and good to be back!

I am afraid I did not know that song when I was a child, I grew up Catholic and my favorite songs were 'batman smells' and one about the devil sitting on a tack. I acctually remember on christmas mass where we were to sing 'jingle bells' - well we had 'batman smells' ingrained in our heads for about 3 or 4 years by then - so you know how funny that was trying to sing the correct song in front of our parents! It, didn't come out right and batmobile lost a wheel robin blew his nose in cheerios. 8th graders are funny aren't they?

Anywho . . .

I thought I knew what you were 'fishing' for when you posted, and I figured I'd bite because I could.

Abraham recieved righteousness (viewed as a Doer of the Law) because he believe The Father.

He still became circumsized.
He Walked in His Faith.

Why do so many think that having faith means that they don't have to walk?

It seems to me that you are in this school of thought?

How do we know you have faith?
How Should a person of Faith walk?
How do you know you have Faith?

Peace,
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Old 09-11-2003, 08:40 PM
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Re: A Tzaddik shall Live by his Faith.

Originally posted by Valid Name
I am afraid I did not know that song when I was a child, I grew up Catholic and my favorite songs were 'batman smells' and one about the devil sitting on a tack. I acctually remember on christmas mass where we were to sing 'jingle bells' - well we had 'batman smells' ingrained in our heads for about 3 or 4 years by then - so you know how funny that was trying to sing the correct song in front of our parents! It, didn't come out right and batmobile lost a wheel robin blew his nose in cheerios. 8th graders are funny aren't they?

Matthew23: You crack me up.

Originally posted by Valid Name
Why do so many think that having faith means that they don't have to walk?
It seems to me that you are in this school of thought?

This is a misconception. Some say that because we don't keep the "physical" Torah, then we aren't "walking" like we're supposed to. Problem is, many Christians don't know why thy can or can't and do or don't keep the Law that was given to Israel. They just simply say that they are saved by faith. Yes, that's true, but they don't realize that by receiving the "gift", they have entered into a covenant and have received a circumcision of the heart. It took me a long time to understand this. I know there is much more for me yet to learn.

How do we know you have faith?

"Faith without works is dead". (James 2:17,26)

How Should a person of Faith walk?

Like Yeshua.

How do you know you have Faith?

Hmm. I've never been asked that before!

matt
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Old 09-13-2003, 02:50 PM
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Post Bottle of Water -

Greetings Matthew!

I seem to have come across a contradiction as I look through this. Paul says that Abraham was justified before he was cicumsized, while James says that he was justified by his work - however both quote that he Believed The Father and it was imputed to him for righteousness.

I have scripture that says Abraham was justified by works, and you have scripture that says works do not justify.

How can sense be made out of this?
If Faith without works is dead, then must not works justify as well?

Peace!
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Old 09-14-2003, 12:00 AM
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Re: Bottle of Water -

Quote:
Originally posted by Valid Name
I seem to have come across a contradiction as I look through this. Paul says that Abraham was justified before he was cicumsized, while James says that he was justified by his work - however both quote that he Believed The Father and it was imputed to him for righteousness.

I have scripture that says Abraham was justified by works, and you have scripture that says works do not justify.

How can sense be made out of this?
If Faith without works is dead, then must not works justify as well?
James is saying that the works of Abraham were evidence of his faith. If he did not have the works to show that he had the faith, then he obviously didn't have the faith. First faith, then works.

We don't receive "the gift" when we get circumcised.
We get circumcised when we receive the gift.

with love,
matt
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