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  #16  
Old 07-21-2002, 04:40 PM
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Matthew23 Matthew23 is offline
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Hi, Michael.

I'd like to reply first about the Passover Lamb...

The original Passover Lamb- what was accomplished through its blood? The answer is- freedom from the bondage of Egypt. And all of their firstborn were spared because of the covering of the blood of the lamb.

Here is the comparison to Messiah: He is our Passover Lamb in that His blood has freed us from the bondage of sin. We have eternal life because of the covering of His blood.

more to come...
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  #17  
Old 07-21-2002, 05:13 PM
Thummim Thummim is offline
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Post The blood of the covenant!

...Matthew23, only the firstborn were delivered. They were the only ones who were under threat. The blood of the paschel lamb is synonomus with the blood of circumcision. It says that YHWH's people are in covenant to him and that he makes a distinction between the people of Israel and the Egyptians. {Ex. 11: 7}

...Read Nu. 28: 16 - 25 and note that all atonements are still required. Further note that no atonement mediates intentional sin. The path that "Jesus" took, is the wrong one. You should know, when Isa. 53 is interpreted not to cover all those whom the author names, that something is wrong. Now answer me this, how does Isa. 52: 11 jump 500 years to Isa. 52: 13, and "Jesus"? Isa. 52: 11 clearly show the authors people returning to Jerusalem with holy vessels in hand.

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But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, {deliberatly} whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth YHWH; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Because he hath despised the word of YHWH, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him. Nu. 15: 30, 31

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And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which YHWH hath made with you concerning all these words. Ex. 24: 8

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The only way to get past the truth, is to use a little bit of "spiritual interpretation" as christians commonly do when they want to twist the truth.

....Michael
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  #18  
Old 07-24-2002, 10:09 PM
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Hi Michael.

I've been thinking a lot about something you said... that there are not enough Jews in the "Chrisitian heaven."

Isaiah 49:6 he says:
"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."


Here in Isaiah, the Messiah is described as, not only one who will restore the Jews, but also be a "light for the Gentiles" as well.

Consider the ratio...

Of all the Jews who ever lived, how many will be in the "Christian heaven?"
Of all the "Gentiles" who ever lived, how many will be in the "Christian heaven?"

something to think about

I'm getting tired of this hot Missouri weather!
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  #19  
Old 07-25-2002, 11:13 AM
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Unhappy JEWs not welcome here!

He came unto his own, and his own received him not. Jn. 1: 11

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He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

And this is the condemnation, {of JEWs} that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. John. 3: 18, 19

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Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Jn. 14: 6

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If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. Jn. 15: 6

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Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4: 10 - 12

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But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Gal. 1: 8

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...The book of John uses the term "the JEWs" 65 times in its texts. "The JEWs" are the bad guys of this book. They have rejected the man-god "Jesus", and the author of this book cannot except this. It is obvious that "the JEWs" are not welcome in a christian heaven, where the name of "YHWH" is to the JEWish people, more than the name of "Jesus". Now, which messianic text doesn't promise salvation to the JEWish people?

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Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.

Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of YHWH'S hand double for all her sins.

The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of YHWH, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Isa. 40: 1 - 3


...but what does "Jesus cry unto Jerusalem?


Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation. Lk. 19: 42 - 44

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...This doesn't speak of "Jesus". He is not the ambassador of peace that is written of in Isa. 53: 5. He brings no peace to his people, and he does not tell them that their iniquity is pardoned. But it is in Isa. 44: 22, in the time of Cyrus, where these words are spoken. But christianity cannot both own the gates of heaven and also allow for a righteous JEWish population which passes through them freely. Isa. 45: 17 says that there is an everlasting salvation that comes in the time of Cyrus {note paragraph markers} that covers this people for all time. Isa. 54: 9 underlines that the author's people have an Eloheem that will not be angry with his people again.


I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee. Isa. 44: 22


...A question concerning the following verses of text?

Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; {Babylon} be ye clean, that bear the vessels of YHWH.

For ye shall not go out {of Babylon} with haste, nor go by flight: for YHWH will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rereward.

Vs. 13; Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.

As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:

So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider
. Isa. 52: 11 - 15


...How does Isa. 52: 11, which has the holy vessels in hand for the trip back to Jerusalem, jump 500 years to verse 13 of Isa. 52, to accommodate "Jesus" as messiah of Isa. 53?

....Michael
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  #20  
Old 07-25-2002, 09:45 PM
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Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and YHWH hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased YHWH to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of YHWH shall prosper in his hand.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic by asking this, I just want to know what you believe....
If J-sus is not the suffering servant that is spoken of in these scriptures, then who do you believe is spoken of here?


Matt


p.s. I apologize for anwering your question with a question...
I don't have an answer to your question right now, I need to dig my nose in and find it out.
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  #21  
Old 07-26-2002, 09:44 AM
Thummim Thummim is offline
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Post The time of Isa. 52: 11

...Matthew23, first I think we need to find some "innocence" to allow for a suffering servant to be "included" with those who deserved the punishment, who also lived prior to the time of Cyrus, to allow for the timing that Isa. 52: 11 gives us.


Jeremiah, Chapter 24

1 YHWH shewed me, and, behold, two baskets of figs were set before the temple of YHWH, after that Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon had carried away captive Jeconiah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah, and the princes of Judah, with the carpenters and smiths, from Jerusalem, and had brought them to Babylon.

2 One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad.

3 Then said YHWH unto me, What seest thou, Jeremiah? And I said, Figs; the good figs, very good; and the evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil.

4 Again the word of YHWH came unto me, saying,

5 Thus saith YHWH, the God of Israel; Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good.

6 For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.

7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am YHWH: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart
.

8 And as the evil figs, which cannot be eaten, they are so evil; surely thus saith YHWH, So will I give Zedekiah the king of Judah, and his princes, and the residue of Jerusalem, that remain in this land, and them that dwell in the land of Egypt:

9 And I will deliver them to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth for their hurt, to be a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse, in all places whither I shall drive them.

10 And I will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, among them, till they be consumed from off the land that I gave unto them and to their fathers
. Jer. chap. 24


...This is one possibility. Does YHWH divide his people into two parts, one who choose him {the good figs} and another who choose evil? {the bad figs} So the good sheep suffer with the bad sheep. But when the year of release comes, all go free. This is likely because of the primary reason for the captivity in the first place as addressed by Jeremiah. In chapter 34 of Jeremiah, the year of release is not honored by Zedekiah, who returns to servitude all the servants that had been released as the Levitical law requires. So YHWH empties Jerusalem until the next year of release comes, and then he frees "all" of his servants. All Israel now being "righteous", as decreed in Isa. 44: 22, after the intercession of the the righteous servant.


...The next possibility that I want to mention, is the author himself. He is the one who intercedes for Israel through the very pages of the book of Isaiah that we read. Isa. 50: 4 - 11 fits the author of Isaiah very well. Isn't the tool of the intercessor of Isa. 53, his knowledge by which he makes all Israel righteous?


11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant "justify" {"tzadek" - make righteous} many; for he shall bear their iniquities. {he makes his soul guilty for the sins of his people, to plead their case as intercessor, Vs. 10} Isa. 53: 11

...These are two possibilities for the time of Isa. 52: 11's release of the captives. But I'm sure that another is possible. Perhaps the author never intended to name the intercessor. It is written that no one interceded for Israel, except YHWH, in the book of Isaiah. "Isa. 59: 16" We know what follows this "intercession" of Isa. 53. The desolate lands are re-occupied by YHWH's people. "Isa. 54: 1 - 3"


....Michael
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  #22  
Old 08-06-2002, 06:30 PM
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Something to read. Please check it out!

Hello Michael.

I have found a particular piece of the New Testament to be reletive to what we have talked some about. Please, when you have some spare time, take a few moments to read Romans, chapters 9,10,11. If you do that, please let me know what you think about it.

Sincerely,
Matt
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  #23  
Old 08-07-2002, 02:18 PM
Thummim Thummim is offline
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Post A nation not called by his name, any longer.

...Matt, Romans chapters 9 - 11 now read, I have to say that Paul makes some mistakes in what he writes. The leadoff verse of Isa. 65: 1 is not speaking of gentiles, but of a tribe of Israel that now worships other than YHWH, and not in the righteousness of the covenant. If we jump two paragraphs to Isa. 65: 13 -16, we will see that both the good servants of YHWH and those who say to him, "come not close to me for I am holier than thou" are of his own people. Nowhere in Isa. 65 is there any further reference to "exceptable gentiles, as a nation". There is no collaboration at all, that "gentiles are being spoken of. When YHWH identifies both peoples, he separates his servants {as being good} from those who eat swines flesh. {the bad guys} There are only these two groups of people being mentioned. Both are from the same house, but with the new name, as mentioned in Isa. 65: 15, one of the people's is no longer called by his name. Isa. 66: 17 further identifies the time of these words as belonging to Isa. 66: 20, where Jerusalem is reoccupied. At the time that they are written, Jerusalem is desolate and without its peoples. What YHWH does to the {gentile nations} is well written up in the texts. Babylon is about to fall. That is the report that Isaiah makes.

...A big problem that translators of the tanakh have, is in not understanding that the word "goy'im" also covers the nations of Israel. It should always be translated "nations", and not "gentiles".

...Who has believed the report {that YHWH shall deliver his people from Babylon} is asked in Isa. 53: 1. An intercessor {likely the author himself} makes intercession for YHWH's captive people. Cyrus is identified as the one who will set the captives free. He is mentioned by name. The following verses of text belong to the time of the Babylonian captivity.


10 Go through, go through the gates; prepare ye the way of the people; cast up, cast up the highway; gather out the stones; lift up a standard for the people.

11 Behold, YHWH hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of YHWH: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken. Isa. 62: 10 - 12

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That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid. Isa. 44: 28


Chapter 45

1 Thus saith YHWH to his anointed, {messiah} to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates {of Babylon}; and the gates shall not be shut;

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...If you look at the gates of Babylon, the proper time to look at, for a proper understanding of Isaiah's words becomes apparent. Paul is without a good understanding of what he is reading. Paul's argument that there is a casting off of Israel after Jerusalem is reoccupied, or that a gentile people becomes more important to YHWH in his sceme of things, is false. No such thing is prophecied. What fails of the prophets words, belongs to the loss of knowledge of {urim and thummim}, where the relationship between the name of YHWH and the name of YaHudaH are lost. {see Ezra 6: 23, and Neh. 7: 65} This "linking of names" is the blessing of Israel. {Nu. 6: 27} No name, no blessing is what Mal. 2: 2 is declaring. YHWH's strength to deliver his people, is a component of his name. I am out to restore this "garment of praise" to the possession of the people of YaHudaH. {*they/we*, bear the name of praise, but without understanding} This name is also the glory of YHWH Elohenu, that is held higher than the glory of the heavens. My hope is that the name of YHWH {and its associated understanding} can protect JEWish lives from the wrath of this world if JEWish possesion of hashem is restored.

....Michael
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  #24  
Old 08-08-2002, 05:10 PM
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psst... hey Michlael, I think we're the only people who have used the message board here for a couple of weeks...

WHERE IS EVERYONE?
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  #25  
Old 08-08-2002, 05:53 PM
Thummim Thummim is offline
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Smile Hey, anybody home?

...There is a few more of us at Lo-ammi. Perhaps you would like to jump over to this site.

http://www.lo-ammi.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?forumid=1

...Hyssop maintains both sites. I've noticed that Tzaddikim is not used much. I jump between both. Most of what I post is on Lo-ammi.

....Michael

Last edited by Thummim; 08-08-2002 at 11:37 PM.
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  #26  
Old 08-19-2002, 09:44 PM
tonyshaw tonyshaw is offline
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To Mathew23:

This is less about the thread, and more about my point of view to something I noted in your post on:07-04-2002 10:51 AM


I prefer KJV over ANY other version. I am currently studying the NT in Greek using an interlinear Greek-English NE 3rd Edition Printed by Baker Books, Sr. Editor Jay P. Green, Sr. ISBN#0-8010-2138-3

I would like to give you some excerpts from the preface:

"The marketplace [has many] new books which are being represented as "versions" of the Bible. Each one claims to be the very word of God, yet there are literaly thousands of differences between them - ... In one way the new "versions" agree: they all leave out dozens of references to the deity of Jesus Christ, and they add words which tend to question His vigin birth, His substitutionary, fully satisying atonement. This is due to their decision to depend on an Alexandrian text-base, instead of that body of God's words which has been universally received and believed in for ninteen centuries, known to us as the Received Text."

"[These other versions mainly cite] two manuscripts, admittedly old, from the fourth century AD., but also admittedly carelessly executed. One, the Sinaiticus, was so poorly executed that ten different hand of 'textual critics' can be discerned as they tried to empose their views on this already corrupted manuscript. They twisted it lake a nose of wax to meet their purpose at the time. It is no wonder that is was discarded, finally found in a wastebasket fourteen centuries after it was executed. The other, the Vaticanus, manuscript lay on a shelf in the Vatican library at Rome until 1431, and was considered so corrupt that no one would use it. Erasmus, the noted Roman Catholic scholar, refused to consider it as a source when he formed the Received Text. This Vaticanus manuscript has errors so absurd that the books purporting to teach 'textual science' carfully avoid mentioning these gross errors in their favorite manuscript. They take these two corrupt, carelessly executed manuscripts, and add a handfull of later manuscripts from the Alexandrian text-base - all of them loose and disrespectful in their handling of the Scriptures, and from these they give you their new [versions]."

"Today there are more tha 5,000 manuscripts and lectionaries in Greek as witnesses to the New Testament text. And 90% or more of these witness to the Received Text readings."

"Partly due to the fact those ancient manuscripts containing the Received Text were worn out by use, while the Alexandrian text-base manuscripts were preserved by the dry conditions in Egypt, some have sought to discredit the Received Text, saying that it is not ancient. But now the manuscript portions from the second century are being unearthed, and lo and behold many of the readings of the Received Text which had bee tagged scronrfully as 'late readings' ... are now showing up in these earliest manuscripts. ... Yet strangely, in textual criticism classes, such discoveries (which support the Received Text) are swept under the rug, not being reported to the students."


"...What are these words which [these other versions] have so freely removed from their versions of the Scriptures?
a) They have made Joseph to be the begetter of Jesus, rather than following the Sriptures which say that God the Spirit begot the human body of the Lord Jesus (Luke 2:33)
b) They have made Jesus to be a begotten creature, rather than the third person of the eternal Godhead (John 1:18)
c) They have deleted "Son of God" from Mark 1:1
d) They have removed "Christ", "Jesus", "Jesus Christ",or Christ as God 25 times or more.
e)They admit that Christ suffered, but removed "for us" (1 Cor. 5:7)
f)They admit that Christ was sacrificied, but removed "for us" (1 Peter 4:1
g)They remove Luke's and Mark's witness of Christ's ascension.
[*NOTE* Though the Vaticanus and the Sinaiticus manuscripts omit the last 12 versus of Mark, they have that exact space for it empty (the only empty space in the entire manuscript) - as if the transcriber of each manuscript knew about those 12 verses, and decided on their own to omit them.]"

The transcribers of the texts (which are used to create the other versions other than the KJV) were actually athiest-type people who really did not believe that Jesus could be God, and decided to re-write the NT texts in what was more correct in their eyes.
It is no wonder that they were thrown away and unused (until now).




It is my opinion that satan's hand is on these works. His best ploy is not to deny God, simply alter his Word. Remember Eve in the garden of Eden? The begining of her downfall was when she incorrectly quoted God's Words.

I tend to stick to KJV or the Greek Received Text. However, I do not judge others who use other versions, I simply let them know my opinion, and I let them decide for themselves.

Remember the warning: do not add or take away . . .
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  #27  
Old 08-20-2002, 02:32 AM
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Thumbs up The morning

Greetings Tonyshaw,

Welcome to the Tzaddikim, you have many points about the versions.

I am curious however, I see rather many of the KJV 'advocates' for a better lack of terms...

What do you ascribe as the Word of G-d?

Many defintions are abound. I really know of none.

Sorry for the pounce of quick questions...

Peace,
Valid Name
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  #28  
Old 08-20-2002, 09:30 AM
tonyshaw tonyshaw is offline
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To Valid Name,

That is the problem with history.

In one hand, hold the actual past as it actually happened. This, unfortunately, is only truely know by God (and I might guess other spiritual forces might know some of the past, but I would further guess that God alone knows ALL of the past in it's entirety).

In the otherr hand, hold the history books and knowledge of man we have today. This, unfortunately is riddled with error, omission, addition, and outright lies. It can even change - many regemes have rewriten history to favor and propagate their points of view.

It takes faith, then, to believe that G-d would ensure that His Word would get to us as He would want it to. In fact, since the pages were originally written by the hands of man, one has to FIRST believe that God inspired the original writtings in the first place. If G-d did affect the hands that wrote the original writtings, then it is not too much of a stretch to believe that G-d could affect the many other hands that copied the originals. It would seem easy to believe that His people, the Jews, have carefully preserved the Word of G'd (OT) to the present day. And there are many documentations demonstrating the solidity of the NT (KJV).

I am also quite sure that there are other versions out there that do not have "flaws" as mentioned - in fact, to a casual reader who allready believes these flaws would probably go un-noticed.

I am a bit of a "purist" who would have Zeroxed copies of the originals in my hands if that were possible. But since I can't have the originals, I try to get as close as possible to them, as I can best determine what that might be.

It is always good to question - G'd Himself encourages us not to just take anyone's word on anything - and I would like to stretch that point to include: anyone's word that a version is accurate to the originals (yes, that includes questioning KJV). To question everything is not a bad thing. Even if you question a truth, if done with the desire to reach truth, doing so might "gird" up your faith in that truth rather than weaken it.

The bottom line is this: Moses saw G'd, and heard His words. The disciples saw G'd, and heard His words. We haven't seen G'd, nor have we heard His words (directly). We only have copies of the writtings from the ones who had.

I believe it is faith that connects the gap. And if you believe in Jesus as Lord G'd, then I believe someday He will explain it all to you someday.



And, thanks for the question. I always enjoy good conversation and getting other points of view.
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  #29  
Old 08-21-2002, 10:40 PM
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Matthew23 Matthew23 is offline
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Hello there fellas. I am an NIV reader myself. I would also like to have the original manuscripts. I think anyone that has a love for G-d's word would love to read all of the actual handwritings of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, Jude, and James (I think Paul wrote Hebrews ). I am able to understand the NIV better than the KJV.

Quote:
Do not add or take away
I think John's actual warning was meant for the book of the Revelation.

So anyways, I guess it's settled... Yeshua is YHWH

p.s. less is more
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  #30  
Old 08-26-2002, 09:22 AM
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Glori Glori is offline
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Hi all,

I am going to post a quick response just to let you know I am alive.

Isa.43.10-11 with John 1.1-3, 4.34, 5.17 & 17.4. The prophecy of Dan.7.13 was fulfilled in John 1.32-33. Any one that doesn't believe that Jesus Christ overcame death by God's spirit in him {2 Cor.5.19) as God's way of "reconcilling the world to himself" cannot overcome the "second death". In Adam all die, but in Christ shall all be made alive(1 Cor.15.22).

YaHudaH
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