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  #61  
Old 09-17-2002, 01:55 PM
Thummim Thummim is offline
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Arrow Praises

...Malachiah, may you find yourself occuping the "praises" of Israel in the name of YHWH, with joy in your heart. The name of the GD of Israel defend thee, and all that you love.

....Michael
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  #62  
Old 09-18-2002, 11:41 AM
Malachiah Malachiah is offline
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Michael

Thank you for the measures of your blessing. Holy is he that dwells in the praises of Israel. Bless you in YHWH! Bless you in the portion of your name sanctified in Him. Great portion is the name of Michael...."Who is Like El".
Malachiah James
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  #63  
Old 10-01-2002, 09:18 AM
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Glori Glori is offline
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Michael,

It has been a gratifying study since I acquired the book of Jewish scriptures. It has been especially interesting about G-d's name. That is where I would like to specualte at this time. I see many names for G-d; I AM, El, Elah, Elohim, Hashem, Adoni, El shaddai, Jehovah Jireh(will provide), Jehovah rapha(health), Jehovah nissi(our banner), Jehovah shalome(peace)Jehovah ra-ah(Shepherd), Jehovah tsidkenu(the Lord is our righteousness), Jehovah Shamma(the Lord is present) and the names I learned from you, YHWH and Yahudah.

It seems that the different names refer to the various aspects of G-d's power, is that correct? I seem to recall that you said a letter has been witheld from the sacred name, and it is necessary for the whole name to be realized in order for G-d's people to be armed, is that correct? You also said that the MIssiah's name would somehow envolve all of G-d's name. I cannot help but be curious as to how one name could take in all of YHWH'S name, can you enlighten me on that? Also, what is the ultimate salvation that will occur when G-d's people are armed? Christians believe it is "life after death"... adopted from Egyptian religion.

I see in Gen.18.1-3 that "the L-rd appeared to {Abraham} by the terebinths of Mamre as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day, and he lifted up his eyes and looked, and lo, THREE men stood over against him, and when he saw them he ran to meet them from the tent door and bowed down to the earth and said MY L-RD". How is it "the L-rd/my L-rd" indicating one, appears in the form of three men?

You had quoted 1 Sam.15.29, that G-d is not man that he should repent"; The Jewish scripture says "The {Glory of Israel} will not lie or repent; for He is not a man that he should repent", but Ex.15.3 says "The L-rd is a man of war, the L-rd is his name". Can you explain that seeming contridiction?


One more question, since you are such a beautiful and obedient Jew, can you tell me when the next Jubalee is, and what exactly does "year of release" mean to this age?

I do so appreciate your willingness to help me in my quest to understand this great YHWH, so that I too may honor his Holy Name and hopefull escape eternal seperation from his glory and power.

God bless the Jews that walk in truth!

Glori
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  #64  
Old 10-17-2002, 09:55 AM
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Micahel,

I had been waiting for you to answer my last post before asking more questions, but more questions burn in my mind;

First, What is the "W" in YHWH?

Next, in reading through all your posts on this thread, you said in one post that the name "I AM" was not given as YHWH"s name, but the Jewish scriptures say in Ex.3.14 "and G-d said to Moses -- thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you".

In another post you mentioned the Rock of David, and also said that the name "Hashem" makes David's throne everlasting. How do you fit that with Jeremiah 23.6 saying in connection with the ruler on the throne of David "--and this is His name whereby He shall be called, The L-rd is our righteousness".

I do hope to hear from you

Glori
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  #65  
Old 10-17-2002, 12:38 PM
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Post Some answers.

...Glori writes;

I see in Gen.18.1-3 that "the L-rd appeared to {Abraham} by the terebinths of Mamre as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day, and he lifted up his eyes and looked, and lo, THREE men stood over against him, and when he saw them he ran to meet them from the tent door and bowed down to the earth and said MY L-RD". How is it "the L-rd/my L-rd" indicating one, appears in the form of three men?

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

...My answer is simple. When an angel visits anyone in the name of YHWH, that is YHWH. He exists in all that carry his will. What does YHWH look like. What Abraham saw was a reflection of ourselves. And YHWH's angels come in his name. That is most likely why his name is secret. But it is only secret until YHWH chooses to reveal his name to all.

20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.

21 Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. Ex. 23: 20, 21

...and with his name comes his authority. YHWH can show up as three angels, as two angels {the next chapter} or as one angel {Who Jacob wrestled Gen. 32: 24 - 32} When YHWH stands up to deliver GD's people out of the hands of Egypt, it is by the hands of an angel.

2 And the angel of YHWH appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

...But whom did Moses talk to?

Glori writes;

First, What is the "W" in YHWH?

...The hebrew letters are yawd-he-vav-he. It is the vav that is represented by the letter W. In Hebrew, it makes both a v sound and a loud o or an "oo" {U} sound when used as a vowel. Because of the complexity of representing these different sounds, I choose to use the W. YaH {w --> "oo"} dah or Jah {o} vah, where the vav is used as two sepret sounds {o, v} the W works best for me. Using Hebrew avoids the confusion. While I have a Hebrew word processor, you would need one also, plus this site would also have to be set up to use Hebrew. Its just easier to use the W.


Glori writes;

In another post you mentioned the Rock of David, and also said that the name "Hashem" makes David's throne everlasting. How do you fit that with Jeremiah 23.6 saying in connection with the ruler on the throne of David "--and this is His name whereby He shall be called, The L-rd is our righteousness".

...I'm not sure what your question is here. But the name of YHWH is always righteous. This name from which the letters of the sacred name are drawn, is YaHudaH. This is the tribe mentioned in Deut. 12: 5, and confirmed in Ps. 78: 67 - 69. In Zech. 14: 20, 21, you will see that all of the residents of Jerusalem {YaHudaH} are righteous enough to use holy vessels. They {YaHudaH} are as Holy as priests. This is because there is only one name now. GD's people are called by his own name. Jeremiah says as much in Jer. 14: 9 and Jer. 15: 16. There is no need for a temple without this name. Hashem is the centerpiece of this faith. The rock of David bears the name of YHWH among the stones of Ex. 28: 21. Jeremiah sees righteousness as belonging to the name of YHWH, and that this name would eventually make all of Israel {in YaHudaH} a righteous people. Isaiah confirms this faith in Isa. 54: 17. YHWH says, "the righteousness of my people is of me {of Hashem}"

Glori writes;

I seem to recall that you said a letter has been witheld from the sacred name, and it is necessary for the whole name to be realized in order for G-d's people to be armed, is that correct?

...Because the name of YHWH is holy as the name of GD, and the people are not always righteous, a letter is withheld to keep the names separate. This way the sacred name can be tended by the priests. The name is put upon the people to bless them. {Nu. 6: 27} But the conclusion of these authors thoughts, is that the people will eventually meld into the holy name.

...I will have to cover more of your questions later. I've just run out of time.

...Michael
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  #66  
Old 10-17-2002, 02:35 PM
Thummim Thummim is offline
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Smile A few more answers. {I hope}

Glori writes;

Next, in reading through all your posts on this thread, you said in one post that the name "I AM" was not given as YHWH"s name, but the Jewish scriptures say in Ex.3.14 "and G-d said to Moses -- thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you".

...The question is in which line of text did YHWH answer the question that Moses asked of him. Where does YHWH give his name? Now we can confirm YHWH's answer by simply moving about in the texts of Exodus. The author has worked upon his answer and wants his readers to get it right.

3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them. Ex. 6: 3

...Here we are told that YHWH has a name that Abraham doesn't know. Abraham knows his Eloheem by the name of El Shaddai. We are told that he doesn't know the name of YHWH. Could this have something to do with Moses question about what the name of his Eloheem is? Moses likely knew his GD as El Shaddai as well. Is there any purpose in YHWH revealing his new name? What is YHWH doing and why does he need a new name? But he makes a promise that he would commit his name to a tribe in Deut. 12: 5. Given that the ten commandments are restated in the book of Deuteronomy, we can overlap these two books in our reasoning. Isn't it likely that the thought of attaching the name of YHWH to the JEWish people was upon the mind of the author? This then may be why Moses asked of an Eloheem who he likely already knew as El Shaddai, "what is your name?" It is not Moses curiosity that gives us the question, but more likely the author's desire to convey this information to his reader. Now let us further confirm that YHWH is the name given as our answer.

5 And YHWH descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of YHWH.

6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, YHWH, YHWH Elohenu, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Ex. 34: 5, 6

...This name is YHWH's glory. It is the answer given to Moses. So what is the {I Am he whom I am} phraise all about? Perhaps we misunderstand this translation. Perhaps what the auther wanted to say is I am the Eloheem that really exists. YHWH is my name forever to all generations of Israel's seed. This is how you are to remember my name always.

...Because this name is talked about elsewhere, we know what answer was given to Moses. We know, because the author wanted to connect his Eloheem to his people, through the name of his GD. The author is a man who thinks like we do. Try to attach yourself to an idol. Man and clay stone wood and metal can never become one. Only through the name of YHWH can one be attached to the JEWish Eloheem. Now this name represents all of Israel, who is gathered from among all nations to merge with their Eloheem in his one name. {see Zech. 14: 9}

Ex. 34: 5, 6

Show me your glory.

LORD, LORD GD

...I read YHWH's proclamation to Moses, of his glory {Hashem} to be as follows, first the name of the tribe of YaHudah, followed by the name that is now connected to the author's people, through the tribe of Judah, to YHWH {in all cases here, the fourth letter being removed} In other words, Judah {married to} YHWH who is your {El}oheem. {the second occurance being the name of YHWH. {LORD (YaHudaH) + LORD EL (YHWH)}. This is the signing of the kethubah {Marriage licence}.

Glori writes;

It seems that the different names refer to the various aspects of G-d's power, is that correct?

...Excusing {I am} as GD's name, the author names to what these terms apply. Yes YHWH is the banner that Isaiah speaks of in Isa. 11: 10. The root of Jesse is YaHudah. Likewise, the Presence of YHWH always attends his name, {no name, --> no Shekina!}. The Peace, Healing and the Righteousness of the peoples belongs to the name of YHWH, the name that christianity didn't build upon, likely because it would have given away just how JEWish the tanakh is. It is also the name of YHWH that Saves the JEWish people from the assault against their name, {as I read Ps. 124, 7, 8 to say}. So now it is the one name of YHWH. {one name merged in an ever righteous people (YHWH is their righteousness or they couldn't be ever righteous)} Of course YHWH gathers his people to himself. How can they be guilty for his own namesake? And yet that is why so many were slaughtered. They were JEWs! The JEWish people can only be guilty by name if the GD {YHWH} is guilty also.

...I hope that I may have resolved some of your questions. I am not the end all of answers. I only know the answers as I have learned them.

....Michael
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  #67  
Old 10-17-2002, 08:33 PM
Malachiah Malachiah is offline
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Michael, what does this mean?

"...Yes, though of non JEWish parents"

This is how you responded when asked if you are Jewish. 7-15-2002. What does that mean and how is it possible?
Malachiah James
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  #68  
Old 10-18-2002, 11:44 AM
Thummim Thummim is offline
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Become a stranger! {II Chr. 6: 32, 33}

...Malachiah, I am a JEWish convert. I chose to be JEWish years ago. In the sixties, I was a christian. But after three years of this faith, I could no longer be at peace with it. The JEWish people are not genetically a people. JEWish flesh is as your own. Through conversion and intermarriage, the JEWish people have become as the people that surround them. When the German people decided that the JEWish people were different {as a matter of flesh} they were wrong. The JEWs were made to wear yellow stars because the German people couldn't tell who was JEWish by looking at them. They would have destroyed their own children if they would have been deemed JEWs. But then they did. When you see the line of JEWish children being led to safety on TV, because someone is shooting at them, that is the flesh of your own children being rushed away. The JEWish people are not a race of people. JEWs are as diverse a people, as Americans are. If you decide to become JEWish, your body will not hinder you. It is what one believes and your name {JEW}, that makes a person JEWish.

...You can decide to be JEWish. It isn't as easy as deciding to belong to any other faith, but with a little study and the help of a Rabbi, you can convert.

....Michael
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  #69  
Old 10-18-2002, 01:27 PM
Malachiah Malachiah is offline
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Oh!

This changes the whole equation between you and I.

Now I understand why I wrote the Word declaring the only thing I knew for sure about you is that the Angel Michael was coming to me in the trial of Judah under the Logos..."Righteousness"and as Thummin. I had a conviction of something not Jewish in you. Something only slightly detected but something not absolutely consitant with other Jews I have written with and learned from. Those Jews are of the blood you say doesn't exist and they are the ones Hitler found. I have written face to face with these Jews which are from many varied backgrounds and found a certain thing in them that is solid and consistant in them all. I saw you come to that spot and take me there time and again, but this other thing that I only find in gentiles kept returning in you. In them the gentile item is not found. I am learning how to recognize it in Word and surely I can see it in the hearing of a persons mouth. You have been long time with the Jews it seems(a people that is what. if not a blood? And herein we are close to solving the problem of the present shedding of Jewish blood on earth.
If any of the Jews of the Holocaust could have said, "o I had my fingers crossed, I was just a convert. I was just playing religion. Really, I was baptised A Lutheran years ago. They would have done so to save themselves and their blood family! In fact many tried. It was not a religious persecution to Hitler! It was a matter of blood! It is always a matter of blood in the holy things of the living God. He has created all men of one blood and formed them into nations and separated His priest in order that they all might seek Him in their order and know Him in Holy covenant union!
Now you and I are two men from the gentiles joining ourselves to Israel! We were far off. We were without God, without hope, and in the world. But now we draw near into the common wealth of Holy Israel! We are as two women coming to the wedding. Each thinks she is the bride. You think you have already joined in the marriage, and I wash my garment and prepare. To me blood is everything, for all that is the Spirit is already mine. This is my heritage through the blood of the cross of Jesus Christ wherein my hand fits perfectly in the hand of the Jews!

Surely o gentile Michael, the trial in Judah is a marriage.

Malachiah James
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Old 10-18-2002, 02:16 PM
Thummim Thummim is offline
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Sorry to disappoint you.

...Malachiah, check with your {blood?} contacts again. They who are born of JEWish parents will tell you that the JEWish people are not a race of people, and that they represent the people of this world in genetics. JEWs come from all over this world and carry the genes of many nations within them. Those whom Hitler distroyed looked the part of the peoples that surrounded them. {Germans included} Why do you think that these people had to wear yellow stars? It isn't because it was obvious who was JEWish. One of the hardest things to teach a gentile, is that the JEWish people are not a JEWish race. It is christianity that represents the JEWish people as a race. The JEWish people married the daughters of many nations. {even pre-BCE} They also filled their ranks with many people who chose their faith over others. You need to learn of this mixing of genes. You need to sit down in a JEWish congregation and look about. Hitler was a christian who believed like you, that all JEWs were of one race, and he {unlike you} did not esteem that race. Posters were pasted in shop windows in nazi Germany, to show how one identifies a JEW. But most JEWs didn't look anything like the posters. They were gathered by name, and not by looks, to be distroyed in Hitlers ovens. It wasn't a JEWish race that was gathered out of the nations of Europe, for distruction. {even though that is what Hitler believed} It was a very special name that was gathered. {JEWs} When Hitler had the term {das Juden} plastered all about, he unknowingly was slandering the name of an Eloheem.

...As to who was a JEW to Hitler, you might even qualify. One only needed to be 1/8 part JEWish to qualify. Antisemites believe in a JEWish race. Do you know why? How do you hate your own race? Please test what I say. Call a Rabbi on the phone and ask him. I am telling you the truth. There are few "JEWish" genes that can be tested for. Of Levitical {priestly} genes that dominate people with names like Cohen {priest} and Levi or Halevi etc, the greatest percentage of these genes belong to a south-eastern African tribe. You are not as well informed as you think. Even Maimonides was a convert.

....Michael
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  #71  
Old 10-19-2002, 10:43 AM
Malachiah Malachiah is offline
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Michael

you are of the teachings of Balaam, which are geared to destroy Israel.
Malachiah
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  #72  
Old 10-20-2002, 06:09 PM
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Glori Glori is offline
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Re: Some answers.

Michael,

I made reference to Gen.18.1-3 in a previous post, where the L-rd appeared to Abraham as three men, and questioned how one L-rd appeared as three men.

You answered that "when an angel visits anyone in the name of YHWH, that is YHWH, yet you quote scripture that says "G-d is not man" in rejection of Messiah. Here you say that G-d does take on the image of a man, but deny that it is possible for him to raise up a pure man to appear in with the ultimate message.

I am wondering what your expectation is for that prophet that G-d said he would raise up and put his words in his mouth, and him we would hear, or G-d would require it of him (Deut.18.18)? If YHWH raised up a prophet like unto Moses and put his words in his mouth, wouldn't those words first have to be published before the scattered Jews could read/hear them?

I mentioned that Jer.23.6 said "and this is the name whereby he shall be called, The Lord is our righteousness".
You responed "..I'm not sure what your question is here. But the name of YHWH is always righteous."
The point I was making is that one could have the name "Tsidkenu", and it would mean "the L-rd is our righteousness", but that name does not have the letters of YHWH or Yahudah or any of G-d's name.

I just finished the book of Joshua, and I could not help but notice that the reference is to "The G-d of Israel", not by his name. It did not make the difference in his protection, what YHWH wanted was for Israel not to be corrupted by the idolitry of the nations that he gave to their hand. He was so stern on that matter that when only one man coveted their finery, the whole house of Israel went into defeat. And again, when that man was found out, not only was he put to death, but his whole family with him.

Oh, and the thing about you not being a blood Jew, is that only those with the same DNA as the first fathers can experience holy rememberance, the rest have to come to light through those who have it, and even they cannot access it unless their hearts are right. That is the light that "the word" gives that YHWH sent in via Jehoshua (see 2424 in Strongs).

With that I will point out that where Yeshua said in John 17.8 "I have given them the words that thou gavest me", that John 6.63 says those words are "spirit and they are life" - and Ps.138.2 prophesied " Thou hast magnified thy word above ALL thy name".



Glori
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  #73  
Old 10-20-2002, 11:42 PM
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While it is true that converts are accepted in Judaism, and are more than accepted, what you express, Thummim, is not of Jewish conversion. It is not a choice you make. Honestly, from reading much of this thread, I have seen that you understand very little of Judaism. I'm not being disrespectful, but I don't want others to believe what you say is accepted as normative judaism. You can not be a self proclaimed Jew merely because you choose to do so. Halachically, biblically, and ethnically it is not so.

As far as the conversion process goes in modern observance:
One must first express a union of faith to the Jewish people, not merely to the Jewish G-d, but to the people. A Rabbi then takes this convert under his wing for one year. This relationship is more than that of a teaching relationship, but also akin to that of a father/son. During this time, a convert, or proselyte, is often required to do many extra observances while slowly taking on the whole of not only written Torah, but halachic decisions of the ruling beit din as well. An excellent example of this could be the defining of "work" on Sabbath for a community, or better yet, the abstaining thereof. At the end of the year's time-table, the proselyte goes before the Beit Din and answers several questions. After the cross-examination, the individual then, if male, receives a dam brit (if previously circumcised... this is a drawing of blood from the tip of the penis) or a full circumcision if they haven't been so upon birth (generally this isn't done as the practice in America has become quite a secular one, most baby boys are circumcised in hospitals upon birth nowadays). Then after the man has healed, he then takes a Mikvah (ritual immersion in water). A femal also takes the mikvah, but is trained during the year of supervision by the rabbi the laws of Niddah (uncleanliness of the monthly cycle). After immersion, the male then recites his first parsha (this practice varies upon community, other communities have other forms of acceptance) and both the female convert and male convert partake of the kiddish and challah.

Once a person has fully been accepted as a convert, they are not to be treated as a "convert" but strictly as a Jew.

The above conversion process is practiced by conservative, orthodox, ultraorthodox, chassidic, ect... but not by reform. In reform Judaism very little is done... if anything at all. In fact, most reform jews do not even practice the torah on a daily basis, but are merely "jews by ethnicity".

Thummim, I suppose that if you were brought through a reform synagouge you may simply declare yourself Jewish, but there is no formal conversion process in reform judaism. In fact, there really isn't any formal "religion" or even "relationship with HaShem" in reform Judaism. So to say that one has converted to reform Judaism really means nothing but a clingning to an ethnic group. Theologically it truly means nothing. But if you were brought through a conservative or orthodox synagouge conversion process, you show no tell tale signs.

Shalom,
Japheth.
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  #74  
Old 11-12-2002, 08:23 PM
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With the greatest of respect to the post, I have some personal opinions based on my study.

So let me 'concur' with the following alternative perspectives on an Orthodox Conversion:

#1. There is no time-table. I've known some conversions to take years, and (gasp!) a conversion done in less than a week (the boy was NOT from a traditional background the rabbi thought he was a good candidate.

#2. There are differing opinions on where the dam (blood) comes from in the case of a prior circumcision.
Believe it or not, I'm under the impression that the tip could have make the bris invalid (as if it wasn't done).

Biologically, the orlah (forskin) was never attached to the tip, rather, it was attached lower 'down' the shaft. Imagine your sock welded to your shin. It's not attached / welded to your toes, it's connected further up. Therefore, the dam should - according to an opinion, come from there.


It is not a prerequesite that the rabbi be as close to the candidate as mentioned, although the rabbi must take responsibility for the person's knowledge along the lines described so very accurately by the prior post.

Quote:
and both the female convert and male convert partake of the kiddish and challah.
I'm not familiar with the idea that they couldn't prior. Why not?
I've never heard they couldn't have some of the wine and bread at the Shabbos table, why couldn't they? (m'vushal a side issue not on point)

Quote:
Once a person has fully been accepted as a convert, they are not to be treated as a "convert" but strictly as a Jew.
Well, there are commandments to love the convert, and the convert has an access to certain charity, biblically speaking, that the normal stam Jew does not have. And it is usually understood you can not remind a convert of his past. On a seperate point I'm under the strong impression it is clearly forbidden to make fun of his past.

There is a question of arvis, it might not apply to converts (also ref women). I am extremely unsure on this point.

As well as land, they won't inherrit land, except through children, sort of... (well, the Leviim dont' get it either, so I'm in good company).

As well as kiddushin of a woman to a kahun is usser, I'm pretty sure, with a possible exception or two... I'm uncertain on this point as well.

As for someone who is Jewish because he 'chooses' to be Jewish, I agree with the thrust of the prior thread completely.

Why not just announce you are a French Citizen?

I could just say, 'You know what? I'm going to add the dove -that lighted on Jesus' shoulder to the Godhead, making it no longer a 'Trinity', rather, it is a 'Quintity' (I know that's one too many, I'm taking applications for the fifth position, I'm thinking about giving it to Compassion.) I'm also thinking about demoting Jesus to an angel, and I'm going to add a second Pope in my belief system. The new Poppe will be superiour to the Roman Pope. What am I going to call myself? I'm a 'Catholic.'

Now, why not just admit that your definition of 'Jew' isn't what the world knows is a 'Jew'.

Even if you donate half your income to France, that don't make you a Frenchman. Even if you are far more loyal to France than other citizens.


I do believe that if someone wanted to be a Jew, then God will make it possible. I believe that anyone can be a Jew.


Why? What's the point?

To serve God through following His laws.

God tells you to do something as a requirement because it WAS a requirement, and then you do it?

That's as close as you can get.

A soldier is much closer to his Commander than a volunteer worker is to his supervisor.

But they both have a connection.


Let me close this with all personal respect to all writers.
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  #75  
Old 11-12-2002, 08:59 PM
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simchat_torah simchat_torah is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Currently: Champaign, Illinois... in a year: Colorado Springs, Colorado... and someday... very far off.. Yisra'el.
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Shalom Atat,

I appreciate your insights and your comments.

"There is no time-table. I've known some conversions to take years, and (gasp!) a conversion done in less than a week...."

This is true, it's simply that a typical Orthodox conversion is understood to be a year long, but it can be done differently, upon the discretion of the overseeing Rabbi.

"There are differing opinions on where the dam (blood) comes from in the case of a prior circumcision."

Really? I've never heard this before... quite fascinating.

I had always assumed (on my part) that it was the head region that recieved the "prick".

but, that is my assumption, nothing more.

In reference to the Kiddish and challah:
"I'm not familiar with the idea that they couldn't prior. Why not?
I've never heard they couldn't have some of the wine and bread at the Shabbos table, why couldn't they?"

I suppose I have made myself unclear on this matter. They were more than welcome to participate before conversion, but this is simply a tradition that is held at conversion.

I guess we could relate this to a kiss at a wedding ceremony. Though the couple (more than likely) has kissed in the past, it is tradition that at the wedding a Kiss is expected by the Bride and Groom.

"Well, there are commandments to love the convert, and the convert has an access to certain charity, biblically speaking, that the normal stam Jew does not have. And it is usually understood you can not remind a convert of his past. On a seperate point I'm under the strong impression it is clearly forbidden to make fun of his past."

Yes, that is one interpretation (though I don't recall if it was a halacha) from the passage concerning not boiling a kid (or calf) in it's mother's milk.

Ironically, this then puts another twist on the understanding of this commonly misunderstood passage, nu?

BTW, I really enjoyed your "frenchman" allegory... quite humorous.

Shalom and Welcome Atat,
Japheth.
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