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Old 03-23-2002, 03:46 PM
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Question atonement

1 John 2:1-2 (NIV) My dear children, I write this to your so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense- Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

I was reading "THE DECEPTION OF SUBSTITUTIONAL SACRIFICE" at the website here, and I had to dig up some scripture. The verses above are some that I have found. It seems to me that the Son has made a substitutionary atonement for our sin.

Matt
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Old 03-23-2002, 05:12 PM
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Hi, Matt:

Yes, the sacrifices appear to be substitutional: Israel used them in that fashion, and the prophets were sent to set things straight. "Christianity" uses Yahshua's death in a substitutional manner, too.

The popular belief is: Yahshua came along and kept the law perfectly, which pleased the Father immensely. Since we could not and can not keep Yahweh's Law (obey the Father), we needed Yahshua to die in our stead (as our substitute). Now, when Yahweh looks at us who believe that the Messiah has died in our place, He no longer views us as the miserable sinners (disobedient children) that we are but, rather, gives to us a substitutional righteousness because of our faith and treats us as commandment-keepers even though we aren't. In fact, most "believers" in a substitute teach that one no longer need worry about keeping Yahweh's commandments (they were nailed to the cross and done away).

However, before jumping to any of the above conclusions, one may want to consider the next two verses of the scripture you quoted:
1 John 2 NRSV
[3] Now by this we may be sure that we know him, if we obey his commandments. [4] Whoever says, "I have come to know him," but does not obey his commandments, is a liar, and in such a person the truth does not exist;
Now, don't get me wrong; Yahshua's death on the cross accomplished a great deal toward bringing about our chances for eternal life in Yahweh's kingdom--we can get into that on a separate thread. Yahweh just does not accept substitutes. Look what Yahweh told Moses when Moses offered himself as a substitute for the children of Israel in the golden calf affair:
Exo 32 KJV
[31] And Moses returned unto the L-rd, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them g-ds of gold. [32] Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. [33] And the L-rd said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
Hope this helps . . .
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Old 03-26-2002, 02:02 AM
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Hyssop the Man

Peace Matthew 23,

I am glad to see that you have read a little of what we profess here. We by every means are a bit different (except for me, all think I am a pretty normal guy ).

I see that you have met Mr. Hyssop. He is a preacher at my assembly, and is not bad I might add. Besides, he let's me eat his 'Viena Fingers' (cookies) on Sabbath.


I hope that we can continue with the discussion of 'Mercy, not Sacifice'. Peace.

Sincerely,
Searching
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Old 03-26-2002, 09:02 AM
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?

Hyssop,
Wasn't a sacrifice required in order for one's sin to be forgiven?

If I have sinned, but then afterward I was very sorry and repented/asked forgiveness, wouldn't I still be required by the law to make a sin offering, if it weren't for the death of Christ?

Matt
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Old 03-26-2002, 06:09 PM
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Forgiveness

Matt,

To be sure, sacrifice is a requirement for the sinner. However, do you think that the following verses indicate that sacrifice is a prerequisite for forgiveness?
Mat 12 KJV
[31] Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. [32] And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Yahshua did not say the all of these sins (with the exception of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost) would only be forgiven after a sacrifice of some sort . . . He simply said that they would be forgiven: period.
Ezek 33 KJV
[14] Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right; [15] If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. [16] None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live. [17] Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal. [18] When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby. [19] But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
Our Heavenly Father just wants us to love him and have the same moral values as He has -- not unlike an earthly father wants of his children. I wouldn't HAVE to see some type of punishment carried out in order to forgive my disobedient children; I just want to see them doing what they are supposed to do. Ezekiel tells us that Yahweh is the same. We, by nature, usually know what is fair and just.

Why then the sacrificial system? That, my friend, is quite an interesting Bible study . . . that I'd be happy to get into
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Old 03-26-2002, 10:51 PM
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In response to Ezekiel 33

about Ezekiel 33...

The key word here is righteousness. Let's say I have been a wicked man (which I have, I was born that way), and I have decided to become a righteous man. Now, in order for me to be a righteous man, I need to keep, um... How many miscellaneous laws are there, three hundred and what? As soon as I break one, I am then unrighteous in the sight of God, correct? Is it really possible to be a righteous man? Here's what I'm getting at...

Ecclesiastes 7:20 (niv) There is not a righteous man on earth
who does what is right and never sins.

Romans 3:21-26 (niv) But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

I apologize if I have turned this into a sort of circular reasoning.

Sincerely,
Matt
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Old 03-27-2002, 04:40 AM
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Mercy Not Sacrifice, Blue DO, Red SIN!

Peace Matthew,

Beating Hyssop to the Punch here I am, He he he.

No circular reasoning here at all. Only questions.

Please consider this: You would let your innocent son be punished for the fact that your sinful son is sinful? This would be a miscarrige of justice, do you agree? NO ONE, does that!...Okay Hitler, butt we bombed him.

Do you remember how the Isrealites had to FIRST be taken out of Egypt (sin) for thier sacrifice(sacrifice) to be acceptable to the Father?
Also think about what the Father Wants. Does he want you to show him Messiah as your sacrifice? Or does he want you to DO his commandments?

What is the Reason that Messiah is nailed to the stake?
Can you continue in sin just because you have faith in Messiah? (sacrifice?)
Quote:
Proverbs 21:27 The sacrifice of the wicked is abomination: how much more, when he bringeth it with a wicked mind?

Sincerely,
Searching
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Old 03-27-2002, 09:51 PM
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Searching...

Quote:
think about what the Father Wants. Does he want you to show him Messiah as your sacrifice? Or does he want you to DO his commandments?
both...

1 John 3:
1 How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him.
2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
3 Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.
4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.
5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.
6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
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Old 03-27-2002, 10:13 PM
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Hebrews 9:
19 When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people.
20 He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep."
21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies.
22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.


It just seems so plain to me. Christ died, shed his blood so that my sins could be forgiven. His death however, does me no good if I do not have a "broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart" (psalm 51:17).

Anyways, what is the writer of Hebrews saying in 9:22? (Man, I love the book of Hebrews. It ties the Gospel together with the OT so well. Beautiful stuff.)

Matt
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Old 03-28-2002, 01:49 AM
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Matt
Anyways, what is the writer of Hebrews saying in 9:22?
Matt, that's a good question. Please consider the King James translation of the verse.
Heb 9:22 KJV
And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
What happens when a disease goes into remission? It is no longer active. That is what the writer of Hebrews is saying to me. When sin has a consequence (e.g. an innocent animal dies because of the sin), the perpetrator is more likely to avoid sinning in the future. And, then, what happens when a sinner stops actively sinning? Yahweh is happy with that individual and no longer remembers his sin. Is this forgiveness? Sure; in a sense. But, it is not like Yahweh wants to kill something (or have us kill something) in order to forgive us. He just wants us to do what is right.

Please consider a couple of other verses in Hebrews:
Heb 10 KJV
[16] This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the L-rd, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; [17] And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. [18] Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
What's the writer saying? Isn't he saying, "if a sinner quits sinning (has Yahweh's laws written on his heart and mind), he is no longer sacrificing"?

And that, my friend, is the purpose of sacrifice: to turn a sinner from sin. The children of Israel, however, did not use the sacrifices in this manner. They used the sacrifices as a means of forgiveness -- much like the Chr-stian world uses the sacrifice of J-sus. The Jews would commit their sin, bring their sacrifice, and go home thinking that Yahweh was happy with them. What do many do today? They commit their sin, participate in communion (the sacrifice of Yahshua), and go home thinking that G-d has now been satisfied and is happy with them.

That's what Micah was getting onto the Jews about in the verses below. Yahweh is no bloodthirsty being just waiting for His sacrifice. He wants the sinner to see the result of their sin (the death of a totally innocent animal) and then turn from their sin.
Micah 6 KJV
[7] Will the L-rd be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? [8] He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the L-rd require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy G-d?
Well, it's getting late so I'll post this now, and we can talk some more about sacrifice . . . thanks for the discussion.
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Old 03-28-2002, 02:39 AM
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The Bowling Alley

Peace Matthew,

I just wished to comment on one thing that you mentioned. You said that you will not be justified without a broken spirit. This is true. If you have a broken spirit, you will be following the commandments. Consider this...sacrifice is merely the doing of the commandments? It is not a separate thing correct?

Sincerely,
Searching
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Old 03-29-2002, 05:51 AM
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2 posts in a row...catching up to you Hyssop...

Peace Again Matthew,

I know you have not responded yet, but I thought that I would explain something that Hyssop and I have passed up being the bone-heads we are.

You are probably wondering, 'what's these guys point? if Messiah didn't die in our Place, then why did he if all you have to do is quit sinning?'

Remember back on LDS talk we talked a bit about Adam and How we are guilty just as he is? I was acctually very surprised to hear you say this. Most believe that everything is completely Adam's fault because he is perfect yadda yadda. We believe that Messiah died because Adam sinned. Or more so that we sin. We believe that When we sin, we murder Messiah. As a sin offering dies not because someone does not sin, but because they do sin.

Basically we believe we have done the most abominable thing:

Murder of an Innocent Victim!

I hope this helps fit some pieces of our puzzle together for you. Peace.

Sincerely,
Searching
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Old 03-29-2002, 10:10 AM
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response to Hyssop

Hello again, Hyssop. I would also like to thank you and Searching for the conversation. It is always a learning experience for me to discuss these things with others.

about remission...

The Greek word used here is aphesis which is a form of the Greek word aphiemi. This word, aphiemi, was used by our Messiah in John 20:23 (kjv)"Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained." In the context here, a person is to remit the sins of others, then his own will be remitted. In other words, one cannot remit his own sins. The remission comes from whoever you have sinned against. In the case of Heb. 9:22 then, the one who remits is God, not man. I cannot remit my own sins. Only someone that I have sinned against can do that. "And without the shedding of blood there is no remission."

about Micah 6...
Here is the comment for verse 6 in my NIV study bible:
"Micah does not deny the desirability of sacrifices but shows that it does no good to offer them without obedience." Makes sense to me.

Searching, I'll get back with you later today.

Matt
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Old 03-29-2002, 06:00 PM
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Re: The Bowling Alley

Quote:
Originally posted by Searching
I just wished to comment on one thing that you mentioned. You said that you will not be justified without a broken spirit. This is true. If you have a broken spirit, you will be following the commandments. Consider this...sacrifice is merely the doing of the commandments? It is not a separate thing correct?
Good point, Searching. But I believe that it would be useless to only follow one of these commandments. They work together.

Matt
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Old 03-29-2002, 06:14 PM
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Re: 2 posts in a row...catching up to you Hyssop...

Quote:
Originally posted by Searching
Murder of an Innocent Victim!
About your last post, Searching. I agree very much with what you have said about why He died. What amazes me is, He didn't have to die for us, but He did it anyway. This leads me to the most popular verse in the bible...

John 3:16 (niv)For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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