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Old 02-10-2002, 09:45 AM
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ImAHebrew ImAHebrew is offline
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Post The Grace of Elohim

Shalom All,

When most consider the "grace" of El, they view salvation as the "gift" they receive from Him. To be sure, our salvation is a gift, but when the Apostle Paul wrote about the "Grace" that saves us, he had something very specific in mind. The word used for "Grace" simply means "gift." You can have the grace or gift of speaking in tongues. One can have the grace or gift of prophecy. But when Paul spoke about the gift that saves us, he had the "gift" of righteousness in mind. We receive the free gift of righteousness from Elohim, and this gift of righteousness saves us. Now, what is righteousness? All of Elohim's commands are righteousness:
Quote:
KJV Psalm 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

KJV Deuteronomy 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before Yahweh our Elohim, as he hath commanded us.
So to be saved, to have life, one must keep Elohim's commandments, and in doing so, one will be declared righteous. Yahushua agrees with this:
Quote:
KJV Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, Elohim: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
It is obvious from what is written in the NT that all have sinned and have fallen short of obtaining this righteousness. But there is good news. Yahweh has given us a free gift of righteousness, and this free gift of righteousness comes to us through the sacrifice of Yahshua. Is there any here reading this that would be able to explain how this doing of the Torah (the free gift of righteousness) works? Bear this Scripture in mind:
Quote:
Galatians 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of Elohim, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Messiah died for nothing!"


Blessings in The Name,
ImAHebrew
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Old 02-11-2002, 11:49 PM
cook cook is offline
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Hello Imahebrew:

Thank you for the thread. I don't quite agree with your definition of grace. For Instance:

You said: The word used for "Grace" simply means "gift."

My comment: Both the hebrew and greek meaning for grace is - favor, acceptance, (pardon)

You said: But when Paul spoke about the gift that saves us, he had the "gift" of righteousness in mind.

My comment: with the scriptures you also give defining righteousness, if you will read them again, RIGHTEOUSNESS REQUIRES ACTION AND INPUT TOWARDS KEEPING THE COMMANDMENTS. It isn't a gift, but requires a PAYMENT of KEEPING THE COMMANDS.

Example of grace: Lets say you visit your brother in law in another town and drive 50 in a 25 mph zone and a cop pulls you over and gives you a ticket. You tell your brother in law about it, and he goes down to the courthouse and pays your fine. THAT'S GRACE.

Yes, grace is a free gift, but, as in the example above, you didn't really deserve it. (because all have sinned and come short) The grace Paul is describing is the (death) penalty paid by Messiah for our noncompliance with the TORAH.

Jay
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Old 02-13-2002, 06:25 AM
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ImAHebrew ImAHebrew is offline
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Post A doing of righteousness?

Shalom Cook,

Welcome to the Forum Jay. We need a good cook to help prepare the food we are partaking of, and surely Messiah has you in mind.

You bring several issues to the table. The first has to do with the simple explanation of the word "Grace." I do not deny that within the usage of Grace you can have various things given, such as "pardon, kindness, favor, acceptance," but what I see in the word for Grace, is that something is always given when this word is used. An example of this is when the Saints at Corinth collected gifts to give to the Assembly of Jerusalem. Paul uses the Greek word for "grace/charis" in describing what they would be giving. Do you feel that the Corinthians were pardoning or giving acceptance to those at Jerusalem? No, they were giving a charitable gift of food and other necessities, and Paul uses "charis/5485" to describe that gift.
Quote:
KJV 1 Corinthians 16:3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality(charis/5485) unto Jerusalem. {liberality: Gr. gift}
This is why when I speak of Grace and then a simple explanation, I define it as "gift," or "free gift," and then to expound further, it just depends on what is being given at the time. Hopefully, there is not that big of problem in how we both look at that word.

Now, when we start to define the substance of what is given, that's a different matter. You feel that what is given is a payment for our noncompliance with the Torah. Believe it or not, that is very close to what I believe concerning the "free gift of righteousness." Our noncompliance with the Torah IS sin/transgression. And that noncompliance (falling short and sinning) is the ingredient that accomplishes the righteousness that comes by faith. Do you not believe that Yahshua is YOUR sacrifice? Do you not accept that by faith? How did you sacrifice Him? Wasn't it through your noncompliance of the Torah? This was the message of the Gospel. YOU have killed the Author of Life, YOU have murdered the Holy One of Israel. This is why the writer of Hebrews could make the accusation that those who fall away (where they need to be brought back to repentance FROM sin), are RE-CRUCIFYING the Messiah ANEW. Sin is what put Yahshua up on the tree, and falling back INTO deliberate sin raises Him back up there, and that publicly humiliates Him. Why? Because it would be part of His redeemed Body that would be shaming Him by placing Him back on the tree. If one has had their mind opened, as to what their sin had done, and then they fall back INTO deliberate sin, that is a dreadful event. So, we can conclude here that our noncompliance with the Torah is what PERFORMED the Spiritual Sacrifice of Yahshua, and THAT is a DOING of the Torah, not by works (something that we can brag about), but though the faith that WE have Spiritually fulfilled the just requirement of the Torah. Those who walk according to the Spirit (and I mean the Spiritual fulfillment of the Torah) are not condemned, for the just requirement of the Torah is met by them:
Quote:
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Messiah Yahshua, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Messiah Yahshua hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh
(the PHYSICAL keeping of it), Elohim sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, to be a sin offering, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled BY us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
The righteousness of the Torah is fulfilled by us, because through our sin, we sacrificed Yahshua. The righteousness of the Torah demands that we sinners are to sacrifice. The righteousness of the Torah does not demand that someone else sacrifice in our stead...the sinner is to sacrifice. So this is why when sin is increased, grace is increased all the more. The more people sinnning, the more people you have that are fulfilling righteousness. This righteousness is as filthy rags, because the blood of the Messiah is all over them. But this is all according to the purpose and plan of Yahweh, to deliver us OUT of sin. Knowing that our sin did kill and cause Yahshua to suffer so, is the initial motivation to cause us to flee from Egypt, but that sin is turned into Spiritual righteousness through the Spiritual fulfillment of the Torah--The Sacrifice of Yahshua.

Hopefully Jay, this will give you something to think about as you help prepare our food.

Blessings in The Name,
ImAHebrew
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